Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic


#188

In all the years that I have been on here I have probably made a handful of disparaging comments about Martin Luther.

Did I regret it, did I repent to God, did I go to confession?

For some things and how far I took them sure for other things no because I didn’t see any sin in them.

One commenter on here compared Luther and the Reformation to the butterfly effect.

In the past I’ve compared to Luther and the Reformation to the Angelic fall in the fall of the tower of Babylon.

Today I would probably compare Martin Luther and the Reformation to pouring water on a Mogwai.

They’re all good analogies maybe some more more critical than others but I think the point is that Martin Luther started something that was very bad and continues to this day which is chaos.

You came on here and talking about rules and telling others they are there going to be excommunicated and maybe the reformed have rules but Protestantism really doesn’t have any rules it’s sort of make it up as you go.

If somebody doesn’t like something that their pastor does they just start their own church I mean that’s why there is something close to 38,000 to 40,000 different Christian denominations and growing.

There is just sort of this vague notion of what Christianity is in Protestantism everybody has this concept but if you were to ask Protestants on an individual to individual basis nobody has the same idea nobody agrees on what Christianity is and everybody has their own definition.

If a Baptist meets Episcopalian they agree they’re both Christian but the hypocrisy is that they don’t have the same belief they don’t hold to the same doctrines they don’t have the same scriptural interpretation and worship styles but yet they view each other as equals.

You mentioned our spiritual leaders but some of our leaders have taken ecumenism to insane proportions even to the degree of indifferentism.

My Philosophy is leave ecumenism to the clergy I practice ecumenism by loving my neighbor and basically avoiding getting involved with other people’s false religions.

I’m not going to go to anybody’s prayer service, I’m not going to go to their church, I’m not going to do a Bible study with them, but I will treat them as a human being and I will love them as my neighbor.

I evangelize to them by my life to the best of my ability and occasionally sharing some things of my faith but not doing so in a forceful manner and by being a good representation of Catholicism.


#189

According to you the reformed don’t care for Luther because he was too Catholic and you guys stay as far as away from the Catholic Church as possible.

It’s the same for many conservative and traditional Catholics it’s just from a different vantage point.

When I say traditional Catholics I mean Catholics in good standing with the Church who attend a Extraordinary Form Mass in communion with Rome or a conservative Parish and Ordinary Form Mass.

Many of us do not want anything to do with the mentality or practices of the 1960’s/1970’s because it reminds us of Protestantism.

Some people feel that individuals in the church have almost white-washed Martin Luther and made him a heroic figure and they refuse to to compromise the Catholic faith.

You have to realize that for many of us Protestants have given us a great deal of pain.

I remember when I was trying just to be Christian and I was deciding whether to be non-denominational Evangelical or Catholic.

I tried being ecumenical for years I was kind of in between Evangelical and Catholic I was almost like a Charismatic Catholic.

After a while I decided that Protestantism was just a abyss of insanity that’s never ending and I embraced the Catholic faith as being true.

Then one day I just sort of snapped and decided that in such an anti-catholic world I was going to dig deep into the roots of my faith and never look back.

I have family members that are Protestants and I find the best ecumenism is just treating others kindly and loving them as best as you can.

I will never see Martin Luther or any of the reformers in favorable light.

Martin Luther might have had a few nuggets of truth but they were nuggets and some reformers had more nuggets than others but that’s all.

I like you as a person I enjoy your company on other threads but it does seem that you’re going through some sort of emotional turmoil in connection to the Catholic Church.

The last time you were on here you were posting on a thread about Pope Francis and the Reformation and then you disappeared for a few months.

You probably had personal issues to deal with in your real life or certainly more important things to do.

It seems that you keep coming back here and keep interacting with Catholics and I keep wondering why because you are so set on being reformed you seem very proud of it.

Perhaps maybe there’s some small spark of an ember of your Catholic faith left?


#190

This is the last thing I’ll probably say.

I agree with a lot of what others have posted on here especially in regards to ecumenism having to do with bringing outsiders into the church.

The reasons people bash ecumenism and treat Martin Lutheran as a proverbial punching bag is because certain persons within the church have turned ecumenism into a coexist bumper sticker.

So when people reject ecumenism what they’re really rejecting is false ecumenism, universalism and indifferentism.

With Martin Luther bashing I think for a lot of people it comes from personal issues in their family life or among peers and there’s a lot of hazings that Catholics have to deal with.

Protestant seem to pretty much treat each other as equals and treat Catholics and Orthodox Christians sometimes as pariahs.

In the United States of America a predominantly Protestant country to many our ancient faith is very alien to them.


#191

What a great image! I never thought of that. But I think it is not Martin Luther that causes this. Perhaps his vehement anti-papal attitude has persisted and spread, but the root I think for the spawning is Sola Scriptura. Once each person makes themselves their own pope, there are as many interpretations as there are belly buttons.


#192

Personally I think Luthor is an over-used villain who needs a rest or to be used more subtly by writers, oh hang on, wrong forum…


#193

Yeah you can thank the Westminster Confession for that one.

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]

Of course Christ is the head of the Church but the see of Peter is the shepherd of his sheep.

http://www.reformed.org/index.html

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html?body=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XXV.html


#194

Thinking about it I think John Calvin was much worst.

He’s basically where we get fundamentalist evangelicalism or at least where we can really trace it back to.


#195

In fairness, though, a lot of those Fundamentalist Baptist churches are Arminian, not Calvinist.


#196

Perhaps but I do think they take Calvin’s predestination.

Once saved always saved but if you sinned after being saved you weren’t saved in the first place.

I had a Presbyterian actually tell me that.


#197

It’s complicated, but Arminianism rejects the Calvinist conceptions of predestinations while some adherents (not all) embrace OSAS. See Charles Stanley for a good example.


#198

Are you familiar with the despicable things Luther published about the Jews, just to start?


#199

Indeed, however Luther also published stuff that is far less despicable about them and there are quite a few ECF who have some things that would sound fairly shocking to say about the Jews to us today. Understanding how language was used is also key to understanding the rhetoric that was been engaged in with regards to both cases. Chrysotom sounds pretty awful to modern ears as well when he goes on about the Jews.


#200

I am reminded of a bit in Douglas Adam’s books where he comments that man then goes on to prove white is black and black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.


#201

That’s laugh’s.

Yeah I’m surprised the guy didn’t hand me chick tracks. :roll_eyes:

He did keep handing me a bunch of crap.

Well… the only thing that wasn’t junk was a copy of the Gospel of John.

I had to work security at a Presbyterian Church pretty awful experience for a person trying to figure out what they believe in.

I was treated like a leper.

This guy was the churches custodian and was a retired teacher.

I guess in his mind he was perfect and stainless.
:roll_eyes:


#202

You know what’s funny I was actually going to point that out myself.

I haven’t read Saint John Chrysostom’s writings on the Jews but I know that he lived in the early centuries of Christianity when the Church was being persecuted by various groups.


#203

I’ve read them, they are quite vitriolic. It’s where the phrase ‘synagogue of Satan’ comes from. There is also a line about such beasts been unfit for work, but fit for killing which neo-Nazi groups often yank out of context and quote from him.


#204

Here are a few direct quotes of interest:

—Hitler’s Education Minister, Bernhard Rust, was quoted by the Völkischer Beobachter as saying that: “Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance … I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp [Schrot und Korn]”

—Hans Hinkel, leader of the Luther League’s magazine Deutsche Kultur-Wacht, and of the Berlin chapter of the Kampfbund, paid tribute to Luther in his acceptance speech as head of both the Jewish section and the film department of Goebbel’s Chamber of Culture and Propaganda Ministry. “Through his acts and his spiritual attitude, he began the fight which we will wage today; with Luther, the revolution of German blood and feeling against alien elements of the Volk was begun. To continue and complete his Protestantism, nationalism must make the picture of Luther, of a German fighter, live as an example ‘above the barriers of confession’ for all German blood comrades.”[60]

—According to Daniel Goldhagen, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Luther’s writings shortly after Kristallnacht, for which Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford argued that Luther’s writing was a “blueprint”.[34] Sasse "applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, “On November 10, 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.” The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words “of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.”


#205

Are you familiar with the despicable things Eck and other Catholics of that era published about the Jews, just to start?
I don’t say this intending “whataboutism”. I intend to provide the context of the era.
When we recognize the guilt within both sides ( though certainly not everyone on either side), we can then join in condemning the behavior and thoughts expressed regarding of the side they came from


#206

in fact few of the major Churches are coming to out looking good if we start looking at this subject in detail.


#207

No one here is defending Eck—an anti-Semite and a Catholic theologian who was a counterpart to Martin Luther. Eck is a figure long forgotten. Few people today even heard of him. But there are people today who are still defending Martin Luther—an un-repented heretic, an anti-Semite and a revolutionary who wanted to destroy the Catholic Church.

Martin Luther had always wanted to leave the Catholic Church, and to found a new church. The Protestant Reformation, which Luther was largely responsible for, fractured Christendom. Setting aside the ensuing wars and deaths, there are now at least tens of thousand of “churches” that pave way for private interpretations of Scriptures so vast and so contradictory that Christ Himself can not be recognized.

Martin Luther did have a choice… Had he continued to pursue his 95 points of reform and work within the Catholic Church, he would have been a great reformer in the Catholic Church. But, unfortunately, he chose to leave and to denounce the Catholic Church, and founded his own Church. Now, 500 years later, we are seeing the rotten fruits of his labor.

“True” Ecumenism is an important, noble and sincere effort by the Catholic Church. An important part of its goal is to heal the wounds, the disunity and the fractures created by Luther himself and the Protestant Reformation.


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