In large measure, we have Pope John XXIII and following for that change in dialogue. In a small number on both sides it sadly has not made it to the apologetics part.
Yep. I am, in my small way, trying to figure out how we the Reformed should respond to these overtures. I think of the lines in the Lord of the Rings where Gimli looked into Galadriel’s eyes and saw the eyes of a friend. May our long enmity come to an end.
Indeed, and when we find it hard to take each other’s hand, let’s agree to take the Spirit’s hand to guide us
To JonNC and SojournerOnEarth
Once someone knows the truth, which is NOT hard to see, when properly referenced, then they can’t unknow that truth. One can’t walk away from that truth. That’s what Lumen Gentium is saying… going back to scripture, meaning it won’t change,
This is repeating what I already gave you Jon. Ecumenism can’t change this nor can evangelization. Back on post Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic
And where that message goes wrong, (squishy) is when people introduce 8 errors I gave as a link, 8 things to avoid http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope/8-modern-errors-every-catholic-should-know-and-avoid. May I suggest errors 3-6 on the list is what I’m particularly referring to.
It is a good thing that the Catholic Church dialogue with non-Catholics. V2 clearly spells this out. In the eyes of the Church, the ultimate goal of ecumenism, as it relates to the mission of the Church, is to evangelize and to guide non-Catholics to the truth of Christ and the Church. That goal can not be distorted as members of the Church engage in discussions with non-Catholics. The Church embraces the papacy, the 7 sacraments, Scriptures and the Magisterium; while vehemently rejects heresies, universalism and pantheism.
By the way, you know so well that it’s against CAF rules to criticize catholic clergy. CAF members had been either suspended, or banned, for such behavior. Administrators of this forum have repeatedly warned its members to exercise great restraints on this matter. When Steve-b said he wanted to reserve privilege to name names, take it as a sign that he wanted to honor that. To bait him into that trap is quite unbecoming.
Throughout the history of the Church, there were those in the hierarchy that advocated heresies, universalism and pantheism. That won’t change, and the promise of Christ protecting the Church—His bride—will prevail once again.
No baiting is intended. I would like him to back up his statements. He seems to be setting himself against the hierarchy . He will not say that he accepts the Joint Declaration or Called to Common, but just harps on a certain passage from Lumen Gentium that is actually informed by other documents. He could come out with a clear statement that he is submission to the ecumenical efforts of the Catholic Church and accepts everything that it teaches on this subject, but…crickets.
He has the opportunity to explain himself.
The paragraph I quoted from
Are you willing to just come out and say that you accept the Joint Declaration, Called to Communion, and other Vatican documents and that you are in complete submission to the papacy in its ecumenical efforts? A simple yes or no will do.
We (Lutherans and Catholics) agree on Justification
Of course we are called to communion. So why hasn’t it happened in 500 years? Has the last 50 years produced the success looked for? I would suggest, NO.
I am submissive to the papacy. That has been the teaching of the Church from the beginning. We are to be not just one in a squishy sense, but “perfectly one” as Jesus commanded
BTW, you didn’t respond to this post Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic
I gave you an answer. While I don’t name names, I got specific. You didn’t respond Luther-Bashing is Anti-Catholic
No, one must speak the truth about Luther, if someone wants to take that as Luther Bashing, then so be it, without the truth there will be no conversion nor unity.
No, if you follow Luther then you are already divided and divorced from the Church.
Nobody should hate Martin Luther or any of his followers, but we should hate his errors and we should try to evangelize them back to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
If the Church approves of Luther, what are they doing being Catholic?
Because we are Catholics, not Lutherans. We don’t agree with Luther, if it’s a method of evangelization you take issue with that is fine, but if you want us to embrace Luther, then that is not ever going to happen, Luther left and did not return, if you want to return you must let Luther go.
Thank you for reading.
The 500th anniversary thing was a scandal. Notice they used the word ‘commemorate’ not ‘celebrate or approve’ the fact it was done on his 500th anniversary and with Protestants who celebrate Martin Luther, makes it highly scandalous and unfortunately several Catholics have fallen into error over this terrible scandal.
Thank you for reading.
I’m sure we can say that what Martin Luther did should be condemned.
quick question. Is the Church justifying Luther’s decision? If so, then that would mean the Church is justifying a split in the Church. If the Church is not justifying Luther’s decision, but rather seeks reconciliation, then that would mean we should help heal the wound. Luther took them out of the Church, we must bring them back.
Actually, since the new CAF format, we’ve seen lots of Luther bashing, lots of instances of Luther’s words taken out of context, quoted in snippets, and isolated for the era in order to provide a false atmosphere around his words.
For example, when one criticizes Luther’s later anti-Judaic writings without placing them next to the numerous Catholic anti-Judaic writings robs thee reading of an honest context. Both are to be condemned, to be sure, but it is disingenuous to reference one without the other.
And you do that by claiming they are not of His Church. That’s a formula that has worked so well over the last 450 years?
I’ve never seen that. I have seen the Catholic Church recognize blame on both sides, however.
Yeah, some of them in the Vatican. Interesting.
Question, do you approve or disapprove of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification and From conflict to Communion?
The Catholic Church justifying Luther’s decision.
Amen… I pray that all souls, including my own, constantly seek reconciliation to Christ and to the Church.
Not all of them do know about Luther already. My college roommate went into a mini-crisis for weeks which she found out some of the things Luther wrote. I was floored that she was unaware of that. So, pointing out those things are important on the individual level.
And as part of the laity, that’s who I am concerned with: individuals. I can not convert people, the a Holy Spirit converts people. I do not need to defend the Holy Catholic Church. She has the fullness of the faith and can defend herself. I merely speak the truth and encourage people to learn more and explore the faith. I am convinced if they do so with a open and honest heart they will find their answers.
So think about your question from my perspective. You are basically saying you are trying to figure out how to respond to the Catholic Church based on how some of the latity behave? That sounds a bit absurd. Either the Catholic Church holds the truth or it does not. The behavior of the sinners in the church (aka all of us) has nothing to do with the soundness of the Church’s teachings.
We all are working on becoming saints. Some of us are further along than others. And just because you dislike or believe some behavior is ineffective doesn’t mean it is true. Different people respond to different things, what is Luther bashing to you, was a moment of enlightenment to my roommate. (No, I didn’t tell her…I thought she already knew.)