Luther! Read Read!


#1

I kept hearing people say that luther said this:
No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.
Well I looked around and it means what it says.
I found the letter he said this HERE.
It is from a page devoted to Luther’s writings,
located HERE.

Im so happy I found it! Im saving this!
What do you think?


#2

Think about what? Whether or not Luther was advocating we do this things? I certainly don’t believe he was.

The Church, granted, in more-than-slightly different words, teaches the same thing. From “God is love”, to “Love is stronger than sin”, the CCC is full of the same *idea. Again, the terminology is different. *We simply can’t separate ourselves from the Love of God.

You have to ask yourself this: Do you believe in a God Whose love is unconditional, or a God Whose love is conditional depending on how “good” you are? My God *is *Love, as the CCC states, so I believe in the former. We try to avoid sin, not to get God to love us, but because it is a natural response to the love of God.

If Christ didn’t die for our sins, then just what exactly is the good news that we are to be preaching?

I’m not sure what you’re looking for when you ask “what we think”, so I might be way off. Let me know if I am.

Mike


#3

Hello Catholic Dude,

Luther,
No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.
This does not sound like Luther is giving the same warnings that Jesus gives.

NIV JOH 14:15
"If you love me, you will obey what I command." INT JOH 14:23
Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” NAB JOH 15:9
"As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Live on in my love. You will live in my love if you keep my commandments, even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and live in his love. All this I tell you that my joy may be yours and your joy may be complete. This is my commandment: love one another as I have loved you. There is no greater love than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you." **NAB JOH 15:22 **
“If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.

NAB MAT 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (ISA 58)NAB JOH 12:44
Jesus proclaimed aloud: “Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; and whoever looks on me is seeing him who sent me. I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who **believes **in me from remaining in the dark. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.”

NAB MAR 10:17

"Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?" Jesus answered, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments:

'You shall not kill;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
You shall not defraud;
Honor your father and your mother.’"


#4

[quote=mhansen]Think about what? Whether or not Luther was advocating we do this things? I certainly don’t believe he was.

The Church, granted, in more-than-slightly different words, teaches the same thing. From “God is love”, to “Love is stronger than sin”, the CCC is full of the same *idea. Again, the terminology is different. *We simply can’t separate ourselves from the Love of God.

You have to ask yourself this: Do you believe in a God Whose love is unconditional, or a God Whose love is conditional depending on how “good” you are? My God *is *Love, as the CCC states, so I believe in the former. We try to avoid sin, not to get God to love us, but because it is a natural response to the love of God.

If Christ didn’t die for our sins, then just what exactly is the good news that we are to be preaching?

I’m not sure what you’re looking for when you ask “what we think”, so I might be way off. Let me know if I am.
Mike
[/quote]

.
Here is the full quote: 13.If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. **We will commit sins while we ****are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. **however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. **No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to **kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? **Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.**We, He is saying that sins dont have any effect on his salvation! Thats not what the Gosple teaches, it says TURN from you sins, and REPENT if you do. He is saying admit your a sinnner but you dont have to stop because its faith alone.


#5

[quote=Catholic Dude]I kept hearing people say that luther said this:No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.
Well I looked around and it means what it says.
I found the letter he said this HERE.
It is from a page devoted to Luther’s writings,
located HERE.

Im so happy I found it! Im saving this!
What do you think?
[/quote]

Well, you should not get too used to your happiness, because it is founded on sand. (What kind of happiness is it anyway that is based on someone having uttered heresy?)

If you were actually looking at this fair-mindedly, you sould notice that this was in a letter to a friend, not in a formal theological treatise. Luther knew that Melanchthon’s problem was scrupulosity, hence he engaged in rhetorical hyperbole. Technically speaking, he did mean what he said. But it is abundantly clear from other writings that Luther didn’t think a person who trusted in Christ would wilfully commit serious sin. He says this explicitly in his commentary on Galatians of 1531, which everyone agrees is one of his central theological texts.

I have pointed this out ad nauseam, but it doesn’t stop the flood of happy Catholics rejoicing at the supposed fall of their brother in Christ.

You need to explain why you would take a rhetorical flourish in a letter as representative of Luther’s thought, rather than a considered opinion expressed in a formal Biblical commentary. Until you can explain this, you are guilty of malice and dishonesty every time you claim that the letter to Melanchtnon is representative of Luther’s views.

This is absolutely no different from the tactics of Jack Chick and other anti-Catholics who take bizarre sentences like “the priest is God on earth” out of context and claim that Catholicism regards priests as divine.

Edwin


#6

Well, Luther said:

“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”

And our Lord Jesus said:

"If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna."
Mat 5:29

Jesus, in total contrast to Luther, says very plainly here, that sin does separate us from Him; so much so, that he encourages us to pluck our right eye out if it causes us to stumble.

I personally choose to believe Jesus; not Luther!

AMercy.


#7

[quote=Catholic Dude].

Here is the full quote:13.If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. **We will commit sins while we ****are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. **however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. **No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to **kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? **Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.**We, He is saying that sins dont have any effect on his salvation! Thats not what the Gosple teaches, it says TURN from you sins, and REPENT if you do. He is saying admit your a sinnner but you dont have to stop because its faith alone.
[/quote]

Contarini summed up quite well the intention behind this letter, so I defer to his post. If we took everything at face value, we’d be cutting our hands off and gouging out our eyes, as Christ said to do if they cause us to sin. In this case, and in the case of what Christ said, I think context is key.

Mike


#8

[quote=Contarini]Well, you should not get too used to your happiness, because it is founded on sand. (What kind of happiness is it anyway that is based on someone having uttered heresy?)

If you were actually looking at this fair-mindedly, you sould notice that this was in a letter to a friend, not in a formal theological treatise. Luther knew that Melanchthon’s problem was scrupulosity, hence he engaged in rhetorical hyperbole. Technically speaking, he did mean what he said. But it is abundantly clear from other writings that Luther didn’t think a person who trusted in Christ would wilfully commit serious sin. He says this explicitly in his commentary on Galatians of 1531, which everyone agrees is one of his central theological texts.

I have pointed this out ad nauseam, but it doesn’t stop the flood of happy Catholics rejoicing at the supposed fall of their brother in Christ.

You need to explain why you would take a rhetorical flourish in a letter as representative of Luther’s thought, rather than a considered opinion expressed in a formal Biblical commentary. Until you can explain this, you are guilty of malice and dishonesty every time you claim that the letter to Melanchtnon is representative of Luther’s views.

This is absolutely no different from the tactics of Jack Chick and other anti-Catholics who take bizarre sentences like “the priest is God on earth” out of context and claim that Catholicism regards priests as divine.

Edwin
[/quote]

I completely agree with this commentary. I also completely agree that we shouldn’t rejoice at the downfall of another. Is that the Christian attitude we should strive for? Don’t angels rejoice at the repentance of one sinner? Shouldn’t we as well?


#9

[quote=amercy]Well, Luther said:

“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”

And our Lord Jesus said:

"If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna."
Mat 5:29

Jesus, in total contrast to Luther, says very plainly here, that sin does separate us from Him; so much so, that he encourages us to pluck our right eye out if it causes us to stumble.

I personally choose to believe Jesus; not Luther!

AMercy.
[/quote]

Jesus said a lot of other things besides what you quote here. For every ten Scriptural quotes like the one you provided, I can find ten that would seem to support the opposite view. I’ve said it time and again, that’s the problem we have when we selectively quote Scripture. Jesus is also quoted many times in the Gospels as saying belief in Him is enough to be saved, or that every sin will be forgiven man, or other such statements, that if we were to just pick one, we could literally justify every position that we could possible hold.


#10

[quote=mhansen]I completely agree with this commentary. I also completely agree that we shouldn’t rejoice at the downfall of another. Is that the Christian attitude we should strive for? Don’t angels rejoice at the repentance of one sinner? Shouldn’t we as well?
[/quote]

We aren’t just discussing another soul but all sola fide protestants, this is why it is important to let them know that sola fide is dumb founded, never has made a lick of sense and goes directly against the teachings of Christ.

Peace,
David


#11

[quote=mhansen]Jesus said a lot of other things besides what you quote here. For every ten Scriptural quotes like the one you provided, I can find ten that would seem to support the opposite view. I’ve said it time and again, that’s the problem we have when we selectively quote Scripture. Jesus is also quoted many times in the Gospels as saying belief in Him is enough to be saved, or that every sin will be forgiven man, or other such statements, that if we were to just pick one, we could literally justify every position that we could possible hold.
[/quote]

Post any quotes from Jesus on sola fide, then go up and down 5 verses and you will also find the discussion of works. Sola fide is dumb founded, and scripturally unsound.
Peace,
David


#12

Contarini-

Well, you should not get too used to your happiness, because it is founded on sand. (What kind of happiness is it anyway that is based on someone having uttered heresy?)

If that quote means what it looks like, Im happy that he is exposed so clearly and can show protestants a clear example of what Faith Alone leads to.

If you were actually looking at this fair-mindedly, you sould notice that this was in a letter to a friend, not in a formal theological treatise. Luther knew that Melanchthon’s problem was scrupulosity, hence he engaged in rhetorical hyperbole. Technically speaking, he did mean what he said. But it is abundantly clear from other writings that Luther didn’t think a person who trusted in Christ would wilfully commit serious sin. He says this explicitly in his commentary on Galatians of 1531, which everyone agrees is one of his central theological texts.

Ok, fair enough. But I guess I dont understand how FA stops someone from sinning. Lets say someone did commit 10 murders in a bank robbery, how do they reconcile themself back to Christ?
Ill look into that Galatians work.


#13

[quote=Contarini]Well, you should not get too used to your happiness, because it is founded on sand. (What kind of happiness is it anyway that is based on someone having uttered heresy?)

If you were actually looking at this fair-mindedly, you sould notice that this was in a letter to a friend, not in a formal theological treatise. Luther knew that Melanchthon’s problem was scrupulosity, hence he engaged in rhetorical hyperbole. Technically speaking, he did mean what he said. But it is abundantly clear from other writings that Luther didn’t think a person who trusted in Christ would wilfully commit serious sin. He says this explicitly in his commentary on Galatians of 1531, which everyone agrees is one of his central theological texts.

I have pointed this out ad nauseam, but it doesn’t stop the flood of happy Catholics rejoicing at the supposed fall of their brother in Christ.

You need to explain why you would take a rhetorical flourish in a letter as representative of Luther’s thought, rather than a considered opinion expressed in a formal Biblical commentary. Until you can explain this, you are guilty of malice and dishonesty every time you claim that the letter to Melanchtnon is representative of Luther’s views.

This is absolutely no different from the tactics of Jack Chick and other anti-Catholics who take bizarre sentences like “the priest is God on earth” out of context and claim that Catholicism regards priests as divine.

Edwin
[/quote]

Well said, Edwin


#14

quote: Contarini

Well, you should not get too used to your happiness, because it is founded on sand.

Ah, I can feel the fresh air of a “reality break.”

quote: Contarini

(What kind of happiness is it anyway that is based on someone having uttered heresy?)

In any case, even if the OP was right, his happiness
is misplaced, IMHO:

“Love does not rejoice in iniquity…” -Paul of Tarsus

Thanks for addressing this issue, Contarini,

Best,
reen


#15

Hello Edwin,

In the intent to look at Luther fair-mindedly, can you show us where Luther teaches Protestants the correct answer is to the question, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?”

NAB MAR 10:17
"Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?" Jesus answered, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments:

'You shall not kill;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
You shall not defraud;
Honor your father and your mother.’"


#16

Interestingly enough, here is what Luther says to Melanchthon earlier in that letter:

Of course, you can only know and absolve those sins which have been confessed to you. Sins which have not been confessed to you, you neither need to know, nor can you absolve them. That is reaching too high, dear gentlemen.

While the quote that is at issue here (the “sin boldly”) certainly gives insight on what Luther believed regarding what is known as “eternal security” of the person whom Christ’s atonement has been applied to, it certainly in no way should lead one to conclude that Luther would actually advocate such a manner of life. I say eternal security, because the Calvinist proposition of “perseverance of the saints” would not allow for such a statement as Luther’s.

I remember reading elsewhere, that he said something to the effect of:

Even if a man were to, while his hands were still wet with the blood of a person he killed, were he to look up to heaven and pray for forgiveneness, he can have comfort in God’s forgiveness towards him.

At any rate, when I brought this up to my pastor, he said that clearly Luther shouldn’t have said that, that it’s wrong, and he cited a couple texts like I Cor. 9 and Revelation 21:8 for his justification as to not believing what Luther was getting at.

Nevertheless, there is an important principle that Luther emphasized (though skewed in parts) that should be remembered - God forgives sinners, Christ did not come to save the righteous, but the unrighteous. Though sin hardens our hearts against God’s grace, sin does not, by it’s nature, make us unable to respond to the means or call of grace when presented to us, even by “interior illumination.”


#17

Hello, Steve Merten

quote: Steve Merten

In the intent to look at Luther fair-mindedly, can you show us where Luther teaches Protestants the correct answer is to the question, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?”

While your question was addressed to Contarini, I feel
constrained to quote Jesus of Nazareth, when asked the
same question by a young man:

“Love the Lord, Your God, with your whole mind, heart and
strength, and your neighbor as yourself. In this is the
whole of the Law and the Prophets.” [paraphrase]

Doctor Luther recommended the same.

As did a revered Hassidic Rebbe, when asked to explain
the Torah, while standing on one foot: His explanation:
“Do not do to another what is hateful to you.
This is the whole of the Law.”

The Great Commandment is not the sole provinince of the RCC.

Best,
reen12


#18

[quote=reen12]Hello, Steve Merten

quote: Steve Merten

While your question was addressed to Contarini, I feel
constrained to quote Jesus of Nazareth, when asked the
same question by a young man:

“Love the Lord, Your God, with your whole mind, heart an
strength, and your neighbor as yourself. In this is the
whole of the Law and the Prophets.” [paraphrase]

Doctor Luther recommended the same.

As did a revered Hassidic Rebbe, when asked to explain
the Torah, while standing on one foot: His explanation:
“Do not do to another what you would not have done to you.
This is the whole of the Law.”

The Great Commandment is not the sole provinince of the RCC.

Best,
reen12
[/quote]

Hello Reen,

Did Luther define that obeying God’s ten commandments is how one fulfills God’s Great Commandments to Love God and neighbor?

Please visit Jesus, What Must I Do To Share In Everlasting Life?

NIV 1JO 5:3
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.NIV JOH 14:15

“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” NAB DEU 11:1

Love the LORD, your God, therefore, and always heed his charge: his statutes, decrees and commandments.” **

NAB 2JO 1:5 **

But now, my Lady, I would make this request of you (not as if I were writing you some new commandment; rather, it is a commandment we have had from the start): let us love one another. This love involves our walking according to the commandments, and as you have heard from the beginning, the commandment is the way in which you should walk.**NIV JOH 14:23 **

Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” NAB DEU 5:9
". . . you shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments."

NAB EXO 20:5

“. . . you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.

**NAB JOH 15:22 **

“If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.


#19

Dear Steve Merten,

My response is post #93, in the following link, starting with the paragraph that begins with:

So, if I understand…

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=67141&page=1&highlight=reen12

Post #95, in that same thread, may be of interest to
those following this discussion.

Best,
reen12


#20

[quote=David Puthoff]Post any quotes from Jesus on sola fide, then go up and down 5 verses and you will also find the discussion of works.

[/quote]

Umm, that was my point, too. We can find anything in Scripture to support virtually any position that we choose to hold, provided it is semi-rational.

Mike


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