Lutheran 'Orders'?


#1

Do some Lutherans have valid orders? I’ve heard it’s possible a few Anglicans do, and maybe a few Lutherans. This sort of confused me as I’ve never thought of them as very ‘sacramental’, anyway.


#2

Lutherans generally do place great value on the sacraments–as do most Anglicans. The only Lutheran church to preserve continuity of episcopal orders at the Reformation was the Church of Sweden. I don’t know what Rome’s view of this is–my understanding is that your Communion does not have the same reasons for invalidating Sweden’s orders as you do WRT those of us Anglicans. But I could be wrong. More recently, ELCA (the largest Lutheran body in the U.S.) has entered into an agreement with ECUSA that will give them the same orders (eventually) that we have. Of course you don’t think we have valid orders, so that won’t help them in your eyes.

In Christ,

Edwin


#3

Hello Teen:

I have heard the same on occasion, that the Swedish Lutherans may have preserved valid orders, but I know nothing else about the subject.

One has to look not only at whether valid orders were preserved at the time of the Reformation and since, but also at the ordinations of individual Anglican or Lutheran priests and bishops, since at least the Anglicans sometimes have been consecrated by Old Catholic or other bishops with valid orders.

Whatever the truth of the matter in general or in particular cases, it really doesn’'t matter, as the Catholic Church does not take chances when it comes to the sacraments. My understanding is that Anglican or Lutheran clergymen who come into the Catholic Church are always absolutely reordained, as a while ago in the case of Fr. Graham Leonard, the former Anglican Bishop of London who was ordained a Catholic priest.

Regards,
Joannes


#4

[quote=Joannes]Hello Teen:

I have heard the same on occasion, that the Swedish Lutherans may have preserved valid orders, but I know nothing else about the subject.

One has to look not only at whether valid orders were preserved at the time of the Reformation and since, but also at the ordinations of individual Anglican or Lutheran priests and bishops, since at least the Anglicans sometimes have been consecrated by Old Catholic or other bishops with valid orders.

Whatever the truth of the matter in general or in particular cases, it really doesn’'t matter, as the Catholic Church does not take chances when it comes to the sacraments. My understanding is that Anglican or Lutheran clergymen who come into the Catholic Church are always absolutely reordained, as a while ago in the case of Fr. Graham Leonard, the former Anglican Bishop of London who was ordained a Catholic priest.

Regards,
Joannes
[/quote]

Fr. Leonard was ordained sub conditione, as was Fr. John J. Hughes, author of the 2 best books on the Anglican viewpoint re: Apostolicae Curae.. It’s very rare, but it happens.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus


#5

Hello GKC:

I mentioned Fr. Leonard as an illustration that his status as a bishop was not accepted because of the stance of Apostolicae Curae. I hadn’t known that that he and Fr. Hughes were ordained as priests sub conditione. Thanks for your correction.

Do you have any idea why these two were not reordained absolutely? I guess this would depend on the their ordinations as Anglican priests and on Graham Leonard’s consecration as an Anglican bishop. One would also have to know the status of the ordaining or consecrating bishops, and I have no idea of how to find this out. Quite interesting. Thank you.

Regards,
Joannes

[quote=GKC]Fr. Leonard was ordained sub conditione, as was Fr. John J. Hughes, author of the 2 best books on the Anglican viewpoint re: Apostolicae Curae.. It’s very rare, but it happens.
[/quote]


#6

Greeting, Joannes,

[quote=Joannes]Hello GKC:

I mentioned Fr. Leonard as an illustration that his status as a bishop was not accepted because of the stance of Apostolicae Curae. I hadn’t known that that he and Fr. Hughes were ordained as priests sub conditione. Thanks for your correction.
[/quote]

You are very welcome. AFAIK, his status as a bishop was not considered. But his orders, and lines, were.

Do you have any idea why these two were not reordained absolutely? I guess this would depend on the their ordinations as Anglican priests and on Graham Leonard’s consecration as an Anglican bishop. One would also have to know the status of the ordaining or consecrating bishops, and I have no idea of how to find this out. Quite interesting. Thank you.

Cardinal’s Hume’s statement on Fr. Leonard’s case is here:

ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/LEONARD.TXT.

It is a case, AFAIK (I’m an outsider, of course) of considering the individual’s education, ordination lines, and other factors.

Finding the Anglican lines is a simple matter. They are all well documented. For example, I can trace my own confirmation back through Anglican bishops, to Old Catholic participation in the consecration.

I myself do not think AC is logical or reasonable (though understandable, particularly from a historical standpoint), but I certainly would never deny that it is the teaching of the RCC. And, ultimately, it is not what others think about what the RCC would consider valid, that matters to the RCC.

A pleasure speaking with you.

GKC

traditional Anglican


#7

[quote=RomanRiteTeen]Do some Lutherans have valid orders? I’ve heard it’s possible a few Anglicans do, and maybe a few Lutherans. This sort of confused me as I’ve never thought of them as very ‘sacramental’, anyway.
[/quote]

So, if you take US currency home and scan it into your PC and then RE-form it(i.e. destroy what it was) and then print it out is it now valid US currency? NO! You’ll go to jail.

The Lutheran order has no more validity then homemade RE-formed currency!:frowning:


#8

Would the Church of Sweden view the episcopate as sacramentally distinct from the priesthood if their orders are valid? I was under the impression that while Lutheran Churches often have bishops, they do not see them as sacramentally elevated above other ordained men.


#9

Lutherns reject 5 of the 7 sacraments. They have Baptism and Eucharist. They have no sacrament of Holy Orders. When they seperated from the Catholic Church in the sixteenth century they lost their priesthood and the Real Presence in their Eucahrist. Only a Catholic Bishop can confer Holy Orders by the laying on of hands. This goes back through Apostolic Succession to Jesus who iniated the Priesthood.


#10

[quote=m dinwiddie]Lutherns reject 5 of the 7 sacraments. They have Baptism and Eucharist. They have no sacrament of Holy Orders.
[/quote]

All Lutherans I know will say that they have two sacraments, Baptism and the Lord’s Supper (and I know one Lutheran pastor who half-seriously counts Confession as a “half-sacrament” because of John 20:22-23 (Jesus breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained’), even though Jesus said this after His resurrection and not before).

But, as you point out, they have no sacrament of Holy Orders. Thus, no sacramental priesthood, and no power to confect the Eucharist – though they do believe that Jesus is present and that it’s not merely symbolic. From a Catholic perspective, Lutherans do in fact have 2 sacraments, but they’re baptism and matrimony, not baptism and the Eucharist.


#11

[quote=m dinwiddie]Lutherns reject 5 of the 7 sacraments. They have Baptism and Eucharist. They have no sacrament of Holy Orders. When they seperated from the Catholic Church in the sixteenth century they lost their priesthood and the Real Presence in their Eucahrist. Only a Catholic Bishop can confer Holy Orders by the laying on of hands. This goes back through Apostolic Succession to Jesus who iniated the Priesthood.
[/quote]

Lutherans don’t necessarily reject the sacrament of Penance. Luther didn’t–at least he was somewhat inconsistent about it (as about many other things).

I find it impossible to believe that Lutherans (or other Christians without a distinct episcopal succession) lack the Real Presence. That’s one of the biggest reasons I’m not Catholic.

Edwin


#12

There are Lutheran bodies which maintain 7 sacraments and some of which may have valid orders and a valid episcopacy through interaction with Old Catholics and various schismatic Catholic Churchs.

The Evangelical Catholic Church comes immediately to mind. Bishop Karl Berwick, its presiding prelate was ordained to the episcopacy by no less than 8 hierarchs, representing somewhere in the neighborhood of 33 lines of apostolic succession. If neither form nor intent was at issue, it is almost a given that at least some of those lines had validity, although being without licity.

Many years,

Neil


#13

[quote=Erich]All Lutherans I know will say that they have two sacraments, Baptism and the Lord’s Supper (and I know one Lutheran pastor who half-seriously counts Confession as a “half-sacrament” because of John 20:22-23 (Jesus breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained’), even though Jesus said this after His resurrection and not before).

But, as you point out, they have no sacrament of Holy Orders. Thus, no sacramental priesthood, and no power to confect the Eucharist – though they do believe that Jesus is present and that it’s not merely symbolic. From a Catholic perspective, Lutherans do in fact have 2 sacraments, but they’re baptism and matrimony, not baptism and the Eucharist.
[/quote]

The Church of Norway (Evangelical-Lutheran) states in their site (the particular paragraph in in Norwegian) that the sacraments are baptism and Eucharist.

BTW, I remember from my hometown Franciscan nuns and Lutheran “nuns” called Diaconesses. The Diaconesses had a habit, different from the nuns. They were women who were celibate and lived in a community.

Now in more modern times I understand that diaconesses and diacons can be married. It’s more in the direction of Third Order members. This is Bergen Diakonissehjem.


#14

In reality, Historic apostolic succession,(a actual documented unbroken listing of chains of bishops (who physicaly participated in the laying on of hands) is non existiant.

So unfortunately, those who believe this is key to a valid communion, will have to acknowledge that they cannot know for certain if their communion bread is just that and only that. Bread.


#15

I find it impossible to believe that Lutherans (or other Christians without a distinct episcopal succession) lack the Real Presence. That’s one of the biggest reasons I’m not Catholic.

edwin, i doubt this is really your reason for not becoming catholic. because if the church said everyone has a valid eucharist, then in reality nobody does. his presence would be trivialized. what matters is what has been handed down to us. you wouldn’t even know about the eucharist if it wasn’t handed down to you.

finally, if your so adamant about not being catholic, why are you wasting your time here?


#16

CommonMan: It is fairly historically certain, however. Some of the early successions are documented…and in many cases we have the successions going back for centuries. It is a historic fact that there have been bishops for 2000 years, that they have ordained successors, and that they were very careful to ensure the validity of their consecrations…so we can be very certain that our orders are valid.


#17

[quote=Contarini]The only Lutheran church to preserve continuity of episcopal orders at the Reformation was the Church of Sweden. I don’t know what Rome’s view of this is…

[/quote]

As a catholic swede I have studied this a bit. It seems NOT to be valid because of involuntary behaviour. The last Catholic Bishop of Strengnäs, if he can be called so, was Magnus Sommar (1528-36), dean of Strengnäs in 1518, nominated bishop by Gustavus Vasa in 1522, and consecrated WHITHOUT papal confirmation by Petrus Magni, Bishop of Westeraas, 6 Jan., 1528. The bishops elect signed a document in which they promised to go to Rome to seek papal confirmation, and thus persuaded Petrus Magni to proceed to the consecration. They never went to Rome.

Staffan Humlebo


#18

The Lutheran Orders –

Thou shalt eat jello at every gathering.
Thy coffie must be thicker than thy blood.
Thou shall not fry fish; it must either be pickled or raw.
Thou shall not change.
Potatoes are to be made pancakes.

Oh not those kinds of orders sorry.
Well all Churches that I have been to have the Revered Elderly Lady of the Blue Hair


#19

[quote=oat soda]edwin, i doubt this is really your reason for not becoming catholic. because if the church said everyone has a valid eucharist, then in reality nobody does. his presence would be trivialized.
[/quote]

I see. So your faith is built on the deadly sin of envy. If all Christians had the Real Presence, you wouldn’t care about it. It only matters to you if you can look down on others. This is really rather sad. (If that isn’t what you mean, please explain what you do mean.)

what matters is what has been handed down to us. you wouldn’t even know about the eucharist if it wasn’t handed down to you.

Absolutely true. What was handed down to me was that the Eucharist was not very important and was only symbolic. I do not believe that to be true. So I’ve certainly gone beyond what was handed down to me.

finally, if your so adamant about not being catholic, why are you wasting your time here?

To annoy you?

More seriously, in the first place I’m not adamant and don’t think I ever will be. It will always be a live option to keep me awake at nights. Second, I’m here largely because this is a place where a lot of Catholics hang out, and I come here in the hopes of squashing some of the sillier Catholic apologetics arguments and getting you guys to think more carefully and fairly about other Christians. In the long run, if I have any effect at all, it will be to make Catholic apologetics more effective–more likely you’ll all just ignore me as a minor annoyance. So you really have nothing to fear from me . . . .

You can always get the moderators to ban me if I annoy you too much.

In Christ,

Edwin


#20

It seems that the Church of Sweden even has religious orders and nuns now…see svenskakyrkan.se/SVK/eng/ministry.htm#kommuni


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