Lutheranism is the "pure" Church?

I have been told by Lutherans where I live (Lutheran heavy upper Midwest) that the Lutheran Church is the pure form of Catholicism that has not been perverted. They claim that the Lutheran Church is the church of the Gospel and the way Christ intended the Church to be. Many have gone on to say that the Lutheran faith is THE One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church rather than the Catholic Church. They believe that the Lutheran faith preaches the Gospel and the Catholic Church has ventured away from doing so. Basically, they are stating that they are the true Church established by Christ.

Are they wrong or spot on according to Lutheran teachings? The Lutherans here are very anti Catholic Church so it may just be a geographical thing and no Lutheranism as a whole. Please enlighten me because this is a tad disturbing.

Ask them WHO founded their church?

They have to face reality and truth, their church was founded by a man. Martin Luther, 1500 years after Jesus.

Ask them also, where is Peter in their church?

SOrry, but no cigar.

The true Church the only Church that can show the vicar of Christ on this earth and which was founded by Jesus is the Catholic Church.
The only one that has not quibbled and waivered on the deposit of faith as handed down by the Apostles.
The Ortodox Church is also a Church with true Apostolic succession and real Sacraments but don’t have Peter.

Peace :thumbsup:

Founded in the 16th century by a monk. Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ and entrusted to his Apostles

Here in Iowa I have had the same experience. My friend was the LCMS Pastor so maybe in our private conversations which were many I just received a reality dose of how anti Catholic
the LCMS was in their teachings.

That doesn’t bother me for many people have difficulty understanding and coming to
the proper understanding of Catholicism. Reading it in a text book does not mean one understands it correctly and here many LCMS persons spent a lot of time studying
textbook Catholicism.

That said I wonder if these people are a minority because to confirm you confirmed only to Luther’s small Catechism which is pretty benign.

Therefore when I came to Catholic answers and read posts from our brothers in the LCMS faith it was like reading posts from persons who must in my opinion not agree with all the LCMS teachings in the Concord book and also disagree with decisions made by the LCMS Church like the refusal to sign the JDDJ

That said I realize they are posting on a Catholic Answers forums site and must be more apt to be open to Catholic teachings contrary to the Concord book

Peace and Blessings in Christ,
Mary.

I believe our experiences are similar due to living in the same region. COLD and Lutheran lol. I am the southeast (a very fundamentalist region) and I am used to anti Catholicism. I am used to people claiming they are the true church, but no used to people claiming they are the true Catholic Church while not being Catholic. Just caught me off guard. :shrug:

What caught me off guard was the term Evangelical Catholic with a Capital C when I was new to the non Catholic forums to mean a Lutheran. That said it’s been explained well but is not any term anyone in this rather large LCMS used or uses or was ever discussed.

I attended their two year Bible study from a LCMS perspective each Sunday and went through the rounds of the Basics of the Faith class (INTRO to LCMS Lutheranism) and they were decidedly LUTHERAN, never a word of EC.

Not only that they changed their sign on their Church from Our Redeemer
to Our Redeemer Missouri Synod after the JDDJ was signed do it was blatantly clear they were a Missouri Synod Church as compared to the ELCA. They disagreed vehemently with the signing of the JDDJ and had no interest here in further dialogue with Rome about it.

It was a toss;
The true catholic Church as expressed by Lutheranism as compared to the True Church.
Just depends what side of the ole TIber you’re on.

Peace in Christ,
Mary.

Hey Dustin,
Is this thread an example of the pot calling the kettle black? :smiley:

=aidanbradypop;11064491]I have been told by Lutherans where I live (Lutheran heavy upper Midwest) that the Lutheran Church is the pure form of Catholicism that has not been perverted.

Well, it depends on the synod. Some seem to have drifted into modernism and liberalism. What I would say is orthodox confessional Lutheranism reflects well the teachings of the historic Church Catholic.

They claim that the Lutheran Church is the church of the Gospel and the way Christ intended the Church to be. Many have gone on to say that the Lutheran faith is THE One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church rather than the Catholic Church.

I would disagree with the second part. I consider the Church to include (at least) any communion that preaches the word and administers the sacraments, even if they mix error with truth.

They believe that the Lutheran faith preaches the Gospel and the Catholic Church has ventured away from doing so.

Well, don’t you believe the same in reverse? Don’t you believe that the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome is the true and pure teaching of the Gospel? Do you not go as far as to claim that the Holy Spirit preserves your teaching through the pope and Magisterium?
And would it not be foolish for a Christian to remain in one communion if (s)he were convinced that another had a more pure teaching? IOW, isn’t this just rather common sense for Lutherans to believe our teaching reflects the truth of scripture?

Basically, they are stating that they are the true Church established by Christ.

I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established. An exclusionary statement such as this seems, I would say, untypical of Lutheranism. Even Luther recognized the CC as the Church.

Are they wrong or spot on according to Lutheran teachings? The Lutherans here are very anti Catholic Church so it may just be a geographical thing and no Lutheranism as a whole. Please enlighten me because this is a tad disturbing.

Dustin, why is this a tad disturbing? Haven’t you seen here at CAF, for example, the same kind of language in reverse? Isn’t it reasonable to expect Lutherans, or Catholics, or Calvinists, or ‘fill in the ______’ to believe their communion has the pure teaching?

For example, to posters on this thread have implied that Luther is the founder of the our communion. I could contend that this is an anti-Lutheran polemic intended to marginalized us as members of the OHCAC. (The fact is that is exactly where the names “Lutheran” and “Roman Catholic” came from.)
Lutherans know exactly where and by whom the Church was founded, and we effectively confess so weekly in the creeds.

Other than the triumphalists, which I have little patience for on either side, why would you expect anything else from Lutherans than for us to state that we are doctrinally correct?

Jon

That’s strange. I thought the Orthodox claimed that they were the One, True Church, so someone must be lying. :smiley:

Ask them who founded their church. Lutheranism was started in the 1500s, while Catholicism started in 33 AD. Orthodoxy started in the 1000s. Ask them if they have any Eucharistic miracles. Lutherans don’t, Catholics do. The Catholic Church has preserved the original Priesthood established by Jesus himself 2,000 years ago.

If they aren’t yet convinced, ask them just exactly when the Catholic Church ventured away from its “original beliefs.” That one should be tough. :smiley:

God bless you. :blessyou:

Well either the kettle or the pot came first. :wink:

Well, don’t you believe the same in reverse? Don’t you believe that the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome is the true and pure teaching of the Gospel?

I do

Do you not go as far as to claim that the Holy Spirit preserves your teaching through the pope and Magisterium?

I do

I would say we are a part of the true Church Christ established. An exclusionary statement such as this seems, I would say, untypical of Lutheranism. Even Luther recognized the CC as the Church.

the Church or THE Church?

Dustin, why is this a tad disturbing? Haven’t you seen here at CAF, for example, the same kind of language in reverse? Isn’t it reasonable to expect Lutherans, or Catholics, or Calvinists, or ‘fill in the ______’ to believe their communion has the pure teaching?

Jon

It is disturbing because Baptist, Calvinist…fill in the blank________ do not claim to be the Catholic Church as Lutherans do. Either you are or you are not. See what I mean? A Baptist does not claim to be Catholic nor does a Calvinist. A Methodist does not claim to be Anglican.

Christ started the OHCAC, of which Lutherans are part, as we confess weekly, of which Orthodoxy is part, as they confess, and Catholicism is part, as they confess, and others.

Eucharistic miracles are typically intended to convince priests or others who have lost faith in the Eucharist. Correct? Maybe Lutheran pastors don’t need them. :wink:
I am being facetious, of course.
Every Eucharist is a miracle, and I am blessed to participate in that on a regular basis.

If they aren’t yet convinced, ask them just exactly when the Catholic Church ventured away from its “original beliefs.” That one should be tough. :smiley:

Lutherans generally accept the early councils, so it is safe to safe that, from a Lutheran perspective, our complaints have there roots in what we would call innovations from the time of the Great Schism forward.

Jon

I should probably stay out of this…as my friend JonNC will surely put forth the best and most balanced case…But I’m going to stick my nose in anyway.

As Jon pointed out - such a position is to be expected. The founding of the “Reformed” Church (which is essentially what the Lutherans and a few others claim to be) was definitely done with the correcting problems that existed in the RC at the time.

Many have gone on to say that the Lutheran faith is THE One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church rather than the Catholic Church.
They believe that the Lutheran faith preaches the Gospel and the Catholic Church has ventured away from doing so. Basically, they are stating that they are the true Church established by Christ.

There are two things here that bear mentioning…

  1. The idea that the catholic Church ventured away from the Gospel is rooted in the original issues that brought abut the Schism.
  2. So the question today, after 500 years, is whether this is still true. As we have often discovered here on CAF when speaking with Lutherans, we agree on a great many things and where there are differences they often come down more to semantics, definitions and emphasis.

So whenever one hears this assertion, the thing to do is to begin to investigate the particulars. See if the person really knows what they are talking about - or if they are just repeating something they were told in religion class…

Are they wrong or spot on according to Lutheran teachings?

Well - according to Lutheran teachings they are “spot on”…but according to Catholic teachings they are not. Obviously there is a difference in perspective. :shrug:

The Lutherans here are very anti Catholic Church so it may just be a geographical thing and no Lutheranism as a whole. Please enlighten me because this is a tad disturbing.

Well it is obviously not a universal thing with Lutherans as at least one group has been in discussion with the Catholic Church and issues a Joint declaration on Faith and Justification (I think - Jon please clarify;)). Plus we have some wonderful Lutherans posting here who are definitely not Anti-Catholic…

As for these things being disturbing…the trick is to get past the “posturing” (my church is better than your church) and start looking at the meat of the matter…so when they say that the Catholic Church got away from teaching the Gospel…Ask them how?
See what they say and then discuss the matter(s) calmly and with charity.

Peace
James

=JRKH;11064869]I should probably stay out of this…as my friend JonNC will surely put forth the best and most balanced case…But I’m going to stick my nose in anyway.

Yours is a good nose, James. I always value your input. I’m sure Dustin does, too.:thumbsup:

As Jon pointed out - such a position is to be expected. The founding of the “Reformed” Church (which is essentially what the Lutherans and a few others claim to be) was definitely done with the correcting problems that existed in the RC at the time.

I agree, though usually “Reformed” refers to the Calvinists, generally.

There are two things here that bear mentioning…

  1. The idea that the catholic Church ventured away from the Gospel is rooted in the original issues that brought abut the Schism.
  2. So the question today, after 500 years, is whether this is still true. As we have often discovered here on CAF when speaking with Lutherans, we agree on a great many things and where there are differences they often come down more to semantics, definitions and emphasis.

Well stated. This, to me, is precisely the case. I think the real issues between Lutheranism and Catholicism are few and specific, with some smaller related issues. For example, Purgatory: the general disagreement is the existence of an intermediate state/place, with indulgence, etc. involved.

So whenever one hears this assertion, the thing to do is to begin to investigate the particulars. See if the person really knows what they are talking about - or if they are just repeating something they were told in religion class…

Boy, isn’t this the truth. Catechesis, or the lack thereof, is a big issue for both communions.

Well it is obviously not a universal thing with Lutherans as at least one group has been in discussion with the Catholic Church and issues a Joint declaration on Faith and Justification (I think - Jon please clarify;)). Plus we have some wonderful Lutherans posting here who are definitely not Anti-Catholic…

And the recent “Hope for Eternal Life” included more than one Lutheran synod. The amount of dialogue is increasing.

As for these things being disturbing…the trick is to get past the “posturing” (my church is better than your church) and start looking at the meat of the matter…so when they say that the Catholic Church got away from teaching the Gospel…Ask them how? See what they say and then discuss the matter(s) calmly and with charity.

Agreed.

Thanks, James

Jon

=aidanbradypop;11064760]

the Church or THE Church?

Same thing. There is but one Church, established by Christ, to which we both belong.

It is disturbing because Baptist, Calvinist…fill in the blank________ do not claim to be the Catholic Church as Lutherans do. Either you are or you are not. See what I mean? A Baptist does not claim to be Catholic nor does a Calvinist. A Methodist does not claim to be Anglican.

Perhaps you could view that as a positive. It has always been our belief that we have accepted nothing outside the Church Catholic, as stated in the conclusion of Augsburg.
Considered positively, this seems like a common ground to start from - the desire in us both to be Catholic, and share the Catholic faith in unity.

Jon

The Orthodox might tell you they believe it to be the other way around. :wink:

As a non-Catholic/Lutheran Christian (raised in the Church of Christ), I believe that the “True and/or Only Church” is comprised of ALL who believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior, thus WE ARE ALL CHRISTIANS. The Church is the people. We are The Church. Isn’t that what Jesus taught us?

It is sad to me that people of faith are fighting over who is “really” following God’s commandments to us. The words of the Bible are the Truth, period. The words Jesus spoke to us are the Truth and the Light, period. There are certainly those who have perverted the words in the Bible to “mean” one thing or another, depending upon their own interpretation, thus creating their own version of “The Church.”

Thus, we now have so many different denominations which declare knowing the True faith and understanding of the Bible, people who are not born and baptised into a certain Christian denomination and are seeking the Truth, have a very difficult time choosing which one is “right” or “wrong.”

When asked what religion I follow, I simply state that I am a Christian ~ final answer! Isn’t it the duty of all of us to spread the Good News that Jesus in the one and only Messiah, and that He came here to offer everyone forgiveness for their sins as long as they believe in Him? When Jesus returns, isn’t He going to reign over all people for 1000 years?

:confused:

Also, I have personally experienced so many miracles in my life that I cannot count them on my two hands. I have received so many blessings and am so very grateful to know that Jesus cares for me as much as he does the smallest sparrow (or any other organism).

Blessed be to all who love the Lord as they do themselves, and every other brother and sister in Christ, as well as those who are not because we are also supposed to love our enemies.

Praise be to God that we all have opportunities to bring the Truth to everyone we meet.

:blessyou:

Frankly, one should be suspicious of any Lutheran that doesn’t claim to be in the OHCAC. If they’re not, then they need to find the OHCAC.

Of course, that church being the LCMS. Possibly WELS.

The good news is that we do have coffee and donuts after service - just like the early church did. We also have member that know the Bible in it’s original German! :cool:

Carl - thanks for jumping in…
I agree with what you way here…this is what Jesus taught us…but I would also say, and I am sure that you will agree - there there is much more to this than simple belief and that Scripture has much more to say about the matter than simply to believe…Though it certainly does say that.

It is sad to me that people of faith are fighting over who is “really” following God’s commandments to us.

Amen - and yet this has occurred since the very beginning. The Judaizers accused the Gentiles of not properly following God’s commandments - and certainly took issue with Paul for promoting such disobedience.
I believe that it is important to recognize how the early Church resolved this matter…through council (See Acts 15) and in accord with the instructions given by Jesus in Mt 18:15-18.

The words of the Bible are the Truth, period. The words Jesus spoke to us are the Truth and the Light, period. There are certainly those who have perverted the words in the Bible to “mean” one thing or another, depending upon their own interpretation, thus creating their own version of “The Church.”

Thus, we now have so many different denominations which declare knowing the True faith and understanding of the Bible, people who are not born and baptised into a certain Christian denomination and are seeking the Truth, have a very difficult time choosing which one is “right” or “wrong.”

Exactly - and so again we come back to trying to determine what is actual Truth…
Jesus prayed that we be one as He and the Father are one (John 17:20-21).
In my earlier reply to the OP I referenced other exhortations to unity recorded by the Holy Spirit in Scripture.

Can we claim to have fulfilled this prayer when one group of Christians teaches that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist and another group teaches that it is symbolic?

When asked what religion I follow, I simply state that I am a Christian ~ final answer! Isn’t it the duty of all of us to spread the Good News that Jesus in the one and only Messiah, and that He came here to offer everyone forgiveness for their sins as long as they believe in Him? When Jesus returns, isn’t He going to reign over all people for 1000 years?

:confused:

Carl - I don’t blame you for being confused. I was too for many years.

But when you read through the NT for clues on how the Church should function, and tie that to the early history of the Church in dealing with various disputes and heresies - then compare that to what has happened since the protestant reformation…Certain things begin to emerge…

The Holy Spirit gave us instructions on how to deal with disputes in the Church - in Mt 8:15-18
The Holy Spirit has given authority to the Church to bind and loose.
The Holy Spirit has show the instructions and authority in action through council in Acts 15.

The early history of the Church shows communication between the Churches and periodic councils to resolve matters of importance up to and including what should and should not be included in the canon of the bible. At each of these councils the Holy Spirit was called upon for guidance…
In short - the history of the early Church clearly shows the implementation of Mt and Acts.

Among those who proposed, developed and claimed the doctrine of “Sola Scriptura”…there was no council - and so far as I know there never has been an attempt at one. No concerted effort among protestants - across the board - to come together and resolve the disagreements by using the Biblical model so as to achieve a greater unity and thus more fully fulfill Christ’s prayer for a profound unity…

Instead what is seen is a constant fracturing - even among the older groups…and we see more and more of the so called “non-denominational” and “independent” groups…:shrug:

I am Catholic because the Catholic Church (Along with the EO) is the most biblical of the Churches in structure and that, along with her history and sound teaching gives me great confidence.

Check Scripture and see if what I have offered is true…

Peace
James

Ben,
Fly here to Iowa and preach it to the LCMS Church: the Pastor here flipped out when I said some LCMS Lutherans were calling themselves Evangelical Catholics with a Catholic C. Here they are not so fond of the Wels either.

I will take a 10 percent finder fee for you to speak which I will donate to a charity of your choice.
Mary.

Everyone believes that their religion is the true one. Every Christian church believes that they are the Church as established by Christ. :shrug:

Yes, my Lutheran friends claim this. I’m sure it’s official teaching according to them, and I would be surprised if they thought any differently. I will say that my LCMS friends don’t limit salvation to only Lutherans. They would admit that any Christian can be saved.

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