Lutherans, Mary, and her perpetual virginity

#58

Every service you’ve attended included a general confession (silent/said as a group) in which the pastor ‘absolved’ everyone simultaneously. That is hardly confessing your personal, grave sins to a ministerial priest.

Don’t patronize me with this, “But you know this becase you were Lutheran for some time”. You are equivocating with your words and trying to compare Lutheran services and ‘sacraments’ with Catholic Masses and Sacraments; it doesn’t work no matter how much you want it to.

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#59

Really? They never had the order of confession and Absolution, led by the Pastor, during the service and prior to communion.

Here is a WELS church’s Order of worship:
Our services typically follow an order of service such as:
Prayer before service and musical prelude
Greeting
Opening Hymn
Confession and Absolution
Lessons and singing of Psalms
Children’s Sermon
Hymn of the Day
Sermon
Reading of the Creed Offering Prayer
Communion (on 1st and 3rd Sundays of the month)
Blessing

http://www.glcwels.com/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=180020126&sec_id=180003152

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#60

Now you are trying to impose your practice. That Lutherans practice it differently doesn’t mean it isn’t practice.

You do know it, and your line of posts was a deception. You know that Lutherans practice Confession and Absolution

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#61

Okay, that’s fair. I’m sorry if I alluded to that. I just meant that Lutherans do not confess their sins out loud to a pastor and that pastor personally absolves them in the Person of Christ.

Again, to me, that is not confessing sins. If there is not an act of contrition, how would any Lutheran pastor know when to forgive sins, or retain them?

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#63

The Lutheran teaching that ‘an enumeration of all sins in not necessary’, yeah I am familiar with it. That is known as not having the Sacrament of Confession. The Sacrament requires an act of contrition for the sins one has committed to be ‘privately absolved’. What act of contrition do you use?

No need to confess your individual sins, let me just absolve you :rofl:…I’m pretty sure that is not what Christ meant when giving the Apostles and their successors the authority to forgive and retain sins. Which Lutheran pastor has ever retained a sin?

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#65

Thank you.
I would contend that they do, that public confession is indeed confessing sins to the priest. And of course, private confession is always available.
In either case, the pastor/priest acts in persona Christi in granting Absolution.

That would be a difference in practice and beliefs regarding what constitutes confession. Obviously, Lutherans and Catholics have different understandings.

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#66

Here are two forms of Lutheran Private Confession & Absolution:

Of course, if someone was raised Lutheran and properly catechized, they would know about these.

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#67

Respectfully toward, suggestion only
Lutherans Mary and her perpetual virginity, in referring them to Dr Scott Hahn, Bishop Robert Barron, whether they heard of either?

Dr Scott Hahn has many Books, CD;s and videos on Blessed Mother Mary>>

Hail Holy Queen
The Virgin Mary Revealed through Scripture
Understanding the Scriptures
Bible and Virgin Mary
The Lamb" Supper
so many more highly recommend > Hail Holy Queen

Bishop Robert Barron he is on line with many videos and Word on Fire
The Queen\ ship of Mary
Mary is a Warrior Queen
The Mystery of Mary the Mother of God> Word on Fire
Easy to watch and not very long videos

Ask in prayer :pray:, and seek out all truths and where ever those truths may lead you, knowing at times such unknown Truth’s can be painful. Study Study to show thy self approved!

One is not forcing one to accept Blessed Mary, but one has given then 2 excellent sources to begin with>>>>> Dr Scott Hahn>>so one can come to >>know>>Blessed Mother Mary.
Dr Scott Hahn has many videos on Blessed Mother Mary on line to watch.

Responsibility of all, is yours to seek, ask in prayer, to question, to examine and follow where ever the Truth leads you. Love :heartpulse: Blessings toward all >>>on ones Life’s Journey! >>>Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Pure Holy Love and ones faithful devotion to cannot be forced, one cannot Love, what they first do not >>Know<<

Peace :slightly_smiling_face:

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#68

Not every Lutheran is a LCMS Lutheran, or Confessional Lutheran. I advise you to look at the picture of the ELCA female pastor and ask yourself if she adheres to the Book of Concord.

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#69

I’ve recently thought about it this way–
Can you imagine being Joseph and approaching the Mother of God, whose womb, whose entire body has been sanctified by virtue of the Incarnation, for sexual relations? I can’t.
Further, Mary and Joseph and Jesus would have slept in the same room for all of Jesus’ pre-adult, and apparently some of his adult life. That’s the way the vast majority of people lived back then, unless they were of the wealthy elite class–which they obviously weren’t. So again, can’t imagine…

I’ve encountered a number of Protestants who insist that Mary and Joseph had subsequent, natural children, despite these issues and despite the obvious fact that “brothers and sisters” as used at the time were broad terms, encompassing half brothers, cousins, etc. And desipte the fact that from the cross, Jesus gave John to Mary as her son. He wouldn’t have done that if he had living brothers, under Jewish law. Unless we’re supposed to believe that he did have brothers, and they all conveniently died before him, in the last couple of years of his three year ministry.
Those who insist that Mary and Joseph had natural children, after Mary carried the incarnate God in her womb for nine months, birthed and nourished and nurtured him, detract from the glory of Christ. As if His was just a routine Incarnation, and a routine Nativity.

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closed #70
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opened #71

This topic was automatically opened 84 days after the last reply.

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#72

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#73

I don’t see how the actions or beliefs of any human being detracts from the glory of Christ. His glory is not dependent on any of us.

While I think claiming that Christ had natural half siblings is eisegesis, accusing those who believe it as detracting from Christ’s glory is polemical

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#74

How is this thread alive? Why is it reopened after being closed for 84 days?

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#75

It’s the cat’s doing.

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#76

@Rasoleil

The Mystical City of God

Sister Mary Jesus Agreda was a 17th Century Spanish nun who received spiritual revelations about Mary and Jesus, both on earth and in heaven, including the creation of the angels and the fall of lucifer and his renegade band of angels. They are presented here for you, in “The Mystical City of God”. While not biblical, these revelations did receive the Imprimatur of The Church in 1949. An Imprimatur (from Latin, “let it be printed”) is an official declaration from the hierarchy of the Catholic Church that a literary or similar work is free from error in matters of Catholic doctrine and morals, and hence acceptable reading for faithful Catholics. Below is a partial list of events that you might find interesting reading, if you want to know “the rest of the story”.

Sirach 24:18, I am the mother of beautiful love, of fear, of knowledge, and of holy hope; being eternal, I am given to all my children, to those who are named by him.

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#77

http://www.stjames-church.com/book2c7.html

The holy angels obeyed their Queen and, visible only to Her, stood in attendance. In this glorious company She spoke to her spouse saint Joseph, and said to him: "My lord and spouse, it is just that we give praise and glory with all reverence to our God and Creator, who is infinite in goodness and incomprehensible in his judgments. To us, who are so needy, He has manifested his greatness and mercy in choosing us for his service. I acknowledge myself among all creatures as more beholden and indebted to Him than all others, and more than all of them together; for, meriting less. I have received from his liberal hand more than they. At a tender age, being compelled thereto by the force of this truth, which, with the knowledge of the deceitfulness of visible things, his divine light made known to me, I consecrated myself to God by a perpetual vow of chastity in body and soul; his I am and Him I acknowledge as my Spouse and Lord, with fixed resolve to preserve for Him my chastity. I beseech thee, my master, to help me in fulfilling this vow, while in all other things I will be thy servant, willing to work for the comfort of thy life as long as mine shall last. Yield, my spouse, to this resolve and make a like resolve, in order that, offering ourselves as an acceptable sacrifice to our eternal God, He may receive us in the odor of sweetness and bestow on us the eternal goods for which we hope."

The most chaste spouse Joseph, full of interior joy at the words of his heavenly Spouse, answered Her: "My Mistress, in making known to me thy chaste and welcome sentiments, thou hast penetrated and dilated my heart. I have not opened my thoughts to Thee before knowing thy own. I also acknowledge myself under greater obligation to the Lord of creation than other men; for very early He has called me by his true enlightenment to love Him with an upright heart; and I desire Thee to know, Lady, that at the age of twelve years I also made a promise to serve the Most High in perpetual chastity. On this account I now gladly ratify this vow in order not to impede thy own; in the presence of his Majesty I promise to aid Thee, as far as in me lies, in serving Him and loving Him according to thy full desires. I will be, with the divine grace, thy most faithful servant and companion, and I pray Thee accept my chaste love and hold me as thy brother, without ever entertaining any other kind of love, outside the one which Thou owest to God and after God to me. In this conversation the Most High confirmed anew the virtue of chastity in the heart of saint Joseph, and the pure and holy love due to his most holy spouse Mary. This love the saint already had in an eminent degree, and the Lady herself augmented it sweetly, dilating his heart by her most prudent discourse.

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#78

As in, you guys made up non-scriptual stuff. :roll_eyes:

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So I accidentally got into an argument on Facebook about Luther and I need help lol
closed #80

This topic was automatically closed 14 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.

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