Mariage and providence and free will

I know we have free will. But in a case like marriage you will marry who you want. But can one “give up” their free will and wait on God’s will? Say I have an opertunity to marry someone and I don’t because I want to wait on God’s will. Would that be right or a mistake?

You should marry the one you love–one who you can enter into that relationship that will draw you both closer to God. If you don’t have that kind of love for anyone, then it’s not the right time to marry. God directs us in the every day things of life. Rarely does he knock us down and command us to do this or that. We can only go by what we know is right at the time. Borrowing “what ifs” from the future means never making any decision for fear we’re making the wrong one. God doesn’t want us to live like that, but in joy and in trust that as long as we are being faithful we will make the right decisions.

How do you know it isn’t God’s will that you marry this person whom God (may have) put into your life? What sign are you waiting for? Pray and discern, but don’t dither.

]In your seeking a spouse…(also for those already married) read the play “the Jewelers Shop” by (later) Bl. Pope John Paul II…

A few lines to get you to…

Andrew:

I thought much at the time about the ‘alter ego’
Theresa was a whole world, just as distant
as any other man, as any other woman
–and yet there was something that allowed one to think
of throwing a bridge.

I let that thought run on and even develop within me.
It was not an assent independent of an act of the will.
I simply resisted sensation and the appeal of the senses,
for I knew that otherwise I would never really leave
my ‘ego’
and reach the other person–but that meant an effort.
For my senses fed at every step
on the charms of the women I met.
When once or twice I tried following them,
I met solitary islands.

This made me think that beauty accessible to the senses
can be a difficult gift or a dangerous one;
I met people led by it to hurt others
–and so, gradually, I learned to value beauty
accessible to the mind, that is to say, truth.
I decided then to seek a woman who would be indeed
my real ‘alter ego’ so that the bridge between us
would not be a shaky bridge among water lilies and
reeds.

(Ignatius Press --on sale :slight_smile: – get it ignatius.com/Products/JSH-H/the-jewelers-shop.aspx and read it in silence …and think and pray…)

That would only be done by working like a prophet. Those in the old testament and any ancient civilization. A prophet and seer works through prayer and certain kinds of divination. The high priest and prophets used the Urim and Thummin a form of crystal gazing. Or using some mind altering smoke. But concerning such things the church chooses to remain and keep others clueless and cut off their hand to spite their face. :rolleyes:

Oh wow, Bookcat, thanks for the beautiful passage:

And I think he found that woman ----- Mary and she stole his heart away and the rest is history!

Glenda

It depends. What do you mean by give up on your free will and instead wait for God’s will? I don’t think anyone can answer you properly or be helpful to you until you explain what you mean by this. Do you mean wait until there is some extreme coincidence that you will take as a sign that God wills you to marry someone? Do you mean praying and turning everyone down until you receive some word through prayer that that is the right person? Do you mean just careful discernment until you find someone who you are compatible with, who is a good person, who will help you get to heaven and for whom you are willing to sacrifice your entire life so that they, in turn, might also get to heaven. Its going to be hard for anyone to be helpful until we actually know what you are asking. How do you believe you determine your will versus God’s will?

A no…

He married Theresa…the play is about marriage :slight_smile:

Good for those seeking as well as those living that Sacrament.

:confused: :confused: :confused: How exactly does the Church spite us and keep us clueless? I’m confused.

As far as discerning God’s will goes: God won’t overwhelm us in our decisions, He won’t yell in our ears and say go here or do this, but He does still guide us. He speaks in the silence of our heart. Here’s a main rule of discernment that helps to figure out if we are following our own will, the devil’s, or God’s. (I’m paraphrasing St Ignatius of Loyola.)

Rule #2) If we are not in mortal sin but are striving to follow God as best as possible, we can tell if something is God’s will for us if we receive a strong feeling of peace and courage about a certain path, as long as the something we are choosing isn’t contradicting God’s revealed will through the Scriptures and the teaching of the Church. Not that there won’t be doubts at all, there will be, because the devil is going to try and thwart us, but the sign of the Holy Spirit’s presence is peace.

So if you meet a girl who has all the qualities you’ve looked for in a spouse, she’s leading you closer to God and not trying to turn you from Him, and when you pray about it you get a strong sense of peace and even joy, those are all good and sure signs she’s the one God wants for you. You have to ultimately make the decision though.

I think some kind of discernment might be what I mean. Marriage isn’t about sex like so many outside the church believe and when they’re not having fun anymore split up. Maybe God’s will on who I should have is what I want. Maybe that’s the question I want answered. Yes. Is God’s will for me to have who I want that wants me back?

If you really believe this how can you trust in God at all if we’re supposed to use divination to determine the future as you claim here? It was a form of “casting lots” that OT peoples used, but which we no longer need nor is it right since Christ has come and fulfilled all our needs for the future. All we have to do is date people who are suitable, find one who we love, and if it’s agreeable to both, get married. There’s no need for any divination or rattling of bones to decide to get married. You’re making a difficulty where there is none at all. And I’d talk to a good priest about your claims that the Church is denying us something. Holding on to such an idea will poison your faith if you don’t let it go for the nonsense it is.

What do you mean “date people who are suitable”? I know they don’t have to be christian or even catholic but I do not want to get involved with someone that would draw me from the faith. I would prefer Christian of course. What is your opinion on this. Dating the right person? You have a point.

there was a man, who was stranded in an island, and started prayin “God, please save me” then a boat arrived and told him if he wanted to go, he said no, “I’m waiting for God to save me” then the boat went away, so the man wen’t back to his prayer, and the same happened other times. at the end the man died of starvation, and went with God and told him, “why didn’t you save me?”, and God said “I sent you many boats”.

I think i can help you with that. when you start dating someone you are supposed to see if that person is suitable for being the mother/father of your child. so, just pay attention to those details, to see if she is what you are looking for.

Della,

I don’t mean that you can use divination to determine your future. That’s not how it works. As we know we have free will. I’m not quite sure what your experience with divination is to make the claim “nonsense” but if used in a spirtualy valid way I have had 100% success 100% of the time. Mind you this does NOT substitute our saints or mystics from their direct communion with God. I really don’t want to get into a discussion about divination but your body knows what ails it and what it needs to heal itself. The prophet were more than simple “diviners” Like “water witches” that seek water streams underground. That does work. But your comments concerning how to find the right person I appreciate. :slight_smile:

God Bless

When you say marriage isn’t about sex, you are right and you are wrong. Marriage isn’t solely about sex, but sex is kind of a huge and extremely important part of marriage. The Catholic Church views it as so important that they say it is actually impossible for someone to marry if they have a permanent impediment to have sex. Not only that, but the Church teaches that when you say your marriage vows you give your sexuality to your spouse in such a way that you then gain a moral obligation to have sex with them if they want to, so long as their request is reasonable (ie, when you don’t have a serious reason to avoid, when you are not sick, not exhausted etc) so it is wrong to think that the Catholic Church thinks marriage isn’t about sex. Sex (and sexual attraction) isn’t the only important thing, but it is important.

As for whether it is God’s will for you to have who you want and who wants you back, I would say it depends. God wants your marriage to work out and last, he wants it to be happy and healthy and get you to heaven. So its not just a matter of who you are attracted to, but who you are attracted to and love, who loves you back and is attracted to you, as well as with whom you will be able to have a successful marriage and who will help encourage you to be more holy and so get to heaven. So don’t just follow emotions and feelings, but do take them into account.

Is any of that helpful?

Yes very much :slight_smile: And I did not know the church would not allow you to marry if you were unable to have sex. Now I have also heard that sexual foreplay must end in intercourse no * coitus interruptus * either. But what I was meaning was that when you’re older and the sexual things have kinda gone. In the end you should still love this person. If someone btw married civilly because the church wouldn’t marry them because of a sexual impediment, would they be refused the sacraments? At least eucharist? It would then be sin to take it wouldn’t it?

You brought up divination, not me. :wink: You are contradicting yourself, as well. There is no “spiritually valid” way to use any form of divination. It is expressly forbidden to us. We are not to try to determine the future by using objects, like throwing dice. We are to trust in God and live our lives day to day in that trust. No one can be 100% sure 100% of the time about predicting the future. Even the prophets spoke in metaphorical language, leaving the future open to God’s will. God cannot be put in a box and told how the future will be. He changes things based on our cooperation. When the people repented, God did not send the dire consequences the prophet had predicted would happen if they did not. All such prophecies were conditional not absolute. You have a skewed idea as to what prophecy was and is.

In marriage, as in all other aspects of our lives, we use the teachings of the Church and our own prudential judgment to determine who would make a good match for us. That is all we need and all we should employ. You really need to talk to your priest if you think we can use any form of divination because using such methods are a grave sin.

My theory is this:

God’s will and the leading of the Holy Spirit are a bit like the operation of a GPS device. Your ultimate destination is heaven, but there may be many paths in life that you make take on your way to those pearly gates. You might get married, you could enter religious life, you could choose any number of careers, etc.

Along the way, as you make these choices from a number of options, the Holy Spirit knows how to get you to the Gates of Heaven by the most efficient route, and He is constantly making real-time course corrections, taking traffic congestion into consideration, etc. Occasionally, you may take a wrong turn, and hear the Spirit say, “Recalculating Route” or “Make a legal u-turn” or “Please drive to highlighted route” when you are completely off-road.

So, while there are numerous options in life that enable you to exercise your free will, God will guide you safely home if you listen carefully and follow the instructions of God’s Perfect Spirit.

If you have an energy blockage in a channel or damaged Kidney energy that will shorten your life span from 1,000 years to 10 more how are you going to know how to repair it ? This comes from your body. It’s not the future. The future is subject to change. We control or destiny. Kinesthesiology. What about that. That is in a sense divination is that wrong?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesiology

It is very easy to live 1,000 or 10,000 years. If your not doing that you must ask. What am I missing? The chosen do this. :slight_smile:

The thing about the Church is that it is ** very ** superstitious. Alot of this is from the middle ages and part of God’s plan. “All the has been called evil, has only been called evil to conceal its’ holiness” It is written.

I don’t think I would go to a priest about divination. Nor would I go to a priest about my cable TV breaking down. I would go to a tech. If I had a medical problem. I wouldn’t go to the priest but to the doctor. In the olden days, when science and medicine were tools of the devil and forbidden. Everyone went to the priest about * everything *. We’ll learn more in time about more things. It won’t be “evil” anymore.

there are stuff that are indeed science, and in the paast were considered evil, yes, but there are stuff that are plainly occultism, and that stuff is divinization. what the profets had, was messages from God, given to them when God knew neccesary, not when they wanted. remember the guy that tried to contact one of the profets by necromancy.

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