I would like to start of in saying that I am not anti-Mary or anything like that. I pray the rosary everyday, and I am devoted the Our Lady of Guadalupe. I also believe in the Vatican approved apparitions, Fatima for example. So to start off, there is a person that I talk to from my parish that is active in our church. Every time he talks to me, its always about the same subject, Medjugorje and supposed messages that are coming out from there, End Times specifically, and more recently Garabandal. Ive read a few posts here regarding Medjugorje to have a suspect look on things. I know nothing about Garabandal, but from what I’ve read it is considered false as well. I won’t pass judgement on said apparitions until the Church wisely passes judgement for Herself. Im not too enthused about discusssing the messages with him, but everytime he sees me he askes me if I have read anything about those apparitions. I answer honestly that no, but its starting to get to the point that its bothering me. I know that the Church has stated that it is not required for Catholics to believe in the apparitions, but I think that some people are bordering the fanatical here. What are your thoughts?
I’ve been in the same position a number of times. My position is that anyone inclined to believe that these alleged apparitions are legitimate would do well to visit the diocese website and read what the Bishop has to say.
I’ve come to some firm conclusions about this. If I’m wrong about them, if there’s some point I’ve missed or misstated, then I’d appreciate being corrected. I know that there’s more than one Deacon, Priest or canon lawyer lurking this site.
My understanding is that the local ordinary has the authority to pass initial judgment in the validity of alleged apparitions in his diocese. My understanding is that under canon law his judgement is presumed correct until proven otherwise, and thus the faithful are bound to adhere to that judgement with religious submission of mind.
To date, every local ordinary and comission investigating the events at Medjugorje has concluded that there is no evidence that it’s a legitimate apparition.
In my opinion, the behavior that the Bishop reports is most decididly NOT in accordance with what the Blessed Mother would have us do. Our Lady would NEVER countenance disobedience to the Bishop.
Under canon law (as I understand it), we are bound to submit to the judgement of the Bishop until it’s proven that he’s wrong. Because both of the Bishops and all of the comissions have concluded non constat de supernaturalitate, we the faithful are bound to NOT act as if this is a legitimate apparition. The mere fact that the Vatican has decided to look into it further does not change that, and in fact to date the Holy See defers to the judgement of the Bishop in response to questions about the proper attitude toward the events at Medjugorje.
There are many dozens of approved apparitions in which our Blessed Mother has asked for the things this alleged apparition at Medjugorje asks. There is no need to chase after an unapproved apparition merely because it piques our fancy.
We do not benefit from being disobedient to the law of the Church. It seems to me that even if we believe that this is a legitimate apparition, if the Bishop judges that it is not we will gain more grace by refusing to listen to the alleged apparition in obedience to the Bishop, than we will by engaging in the pious acts that the alleged apparition requests (even if they otherwise would be good and pious acts in accordance with Church teaching).
Even if I were the one to whom the alleged apparition appeared, I would submit myself to the judgement of the Bishop. If he concluded non constat de supernaturalitate, then all of my public and private acts would be in accordance with his judgement. That is my proper role in the Church.
Do nothing without the Bishop.
Great response Neophyte
I too feel that we should follow the Bishop’s judgement on these matters. I also believe that any messages that Our Lady wants her children to heed to, would not and should not contradict Church teaching, or obediance to the bishop for that matter.
Next time he asks if you’ve read about it, tell him you’ve read the Bishop’s statement and you feel obliged to believe him unless or until otherwise guided by the Church. Then ask if he’s taken the time to read it, and if not, recommend he do so.
Tell him that ALL the bishops of both Medjugorje and Garabandal agreed that the alleged apparitions in those places were “not supernatural”, that is, they were not the work of God. Here are some excellent resources from an orthodox Catholic website, always loyal to the bishops and popes, on these and many other investigations:
I sent him the link that Neophyte posted. I saw him yesterday, suprisingly this was not a topic of conversation.
I’d very much like to hear his response.
Well I saw him today again. He hasnt read the linky I sent. But I told him that I sent it and the investigation several bishops have made regarding Medjugorje, and how the messaages can not contradict sacred scripture, tradition, or magistiral authority that has been laid down. He told me that I guess we have to look at both sides of the stories.
Neophyte’s response, post #2 on this thread, was excellent. Bravo!
Medj. and Garabandal are not accepted by the Church… it doesn’t make someone a better Catholic if they believe in them. In fact, it makes someone a better Catholic if they follow the guidance of the Church stick to the approved apparitions… can’t go wrong with those. You are NOT offending our Blessed Mother by not believing apparitions that haven’t been approved. She greatly values obedience
What would you do if the person who is sending you information about unapproved apparations or not yet approved by the Church was a Religious themselves?
I mentioned this on an earlier thread titled “Confused and Doubtful about a Religious”
This person has sent me messages about Our Lady of Garabandal and so forth. When I confronted him about this he’ll say, “Where do these questions come from? Why do you doubt? Don’t you believe in the Communion of Saints?”
I can understand why Our Lady of Peace (Medjugorje) isn’t approved but why isn’t Our Lady of Garabandal approved?
Is Maria, Rosa Mystica approved?
Our Lady of Akita?
I also noticed books about Medjugorje at our Church and at a Catholic bookstore. :rolleyes:
Maybe, I’m wrong in saying this perhaps Our Lady did appear in Medjugorje but the persons made it into publicity and for profit…I’m sorry if I’m wrong but that’s just my own personal view.
Let us pray for them.
Garabandal hasn’t been condemned or approved. I can understand the Bishop being cautious.
If and when certain happenings occur that have been spoken of by the visionaries…then, and only then, will it be approved.
I am grateful that the Church is very cautious in these things.
We all already know what to do to…pray, do penance, receive the Sacraments.
To which one might respond “Where does your disobedience to the law of the Church come from? Why do you doubt the judgement of the Bishop? Don’t you believe in the authority of the Church?”
“It is a huge gift that the Mother of God wants to be so close to her children! She has shown that love at many other places in the world, but for many previous years is showing that nearness in Medjugorje. We can be grateful to God, who has, through his Mother, taken so many people in the last 30 years towards God’s love, for revealing to them God’s love, and because so many have felt healing and renewal.”
“In the sacrament of confession they were able to feel love towards the Eucharistic Lord, and thanks to his Mother, towards her, as well. Reconciliation in families, healings from drugs, addictions, and other miseries are her intentions. It is a huge sign of our time that Mary, in such concrete way, from such vicinity, and so simply, takes care of her children and dwells amongst them…
“Show what you have received and what you constantly receive here through graces from Medjugorje, reflect that and bring it to others.”
• Cardinal Christoph Schonborn speaking at the end of a prayer meeting for peace held in Vienna Cathedral on September 15, 2009. The Medjugorje visionary, Marija Pavlovic was also present.
*d) Gravely immoral acts committed by the subject, or his associates, at the time of the fact, or on the occasion of these facts. *
The children told Bishop Zanic that they had gone to look for their sheep, but when the associate pastor told the truth, they than said they had, without their parents’ permission, gone out to smoke, and the apparition appeared to them while they smoked. This is falsehood and disobedience, sins against the Eighth and Fourth Commandments.
Thanks for reminding us that even Cardinals are capable of being a bad example. Let us turn from Cardinal Schonborn, and consult with the Bishop who actually has the authority to pass initial judgement on these matters:
So many invalid sacraments, so much disobedience, violence, sacrilege, disorder, irregularities, and not a single “message” from tens of thousands of “apparitions” has been directed towards eliminating these scandals. A very strange thing indeed!
The Church, from the local to supreme level, from the beginning to this very day, has clearly and constantly repeated: Non constat de supernaturalitate! No to pilgrimages that would ascribe a supernatural nature to the apparitions, no shrine of the Madonna, no authentic messages nor revelations, no true visions!
This is the state of things today. How will things be tomorrow? We’ll leave them in God’s hands and under Our Lady’s protection!
[LEFT]Maynooth/Dublin, 17 February 2004[/LEFT]
[RIGHT]Msgr. Ratko Perić, bishop of Mostar-Duvno[/RIGHT]
And what were they smoking? (kidding)
If I had to talk with the cardinal in person, I would ask him with due respect “what’s the role and universality of the church?” I might be wrong guys and I would abide with any just correction “Do you think what the cardinal did was right?” I doubt it, If the devil is playing with our minds, he might be laughing. In Akita (approved apparition), Virgin Mary told sister Agness that “Bishops will go against bishops, cardinals aganist cardinals, against bishops etc”
I believe that Virgin Mary is very very very obedient, because his so, Our Lord Jesus Christ was obedient till death. In truths I tell you, even the gates of hell will not win over the church build on peter.
Personally, I haven’t finished complying with the messages of Fatima and Lourdes so I will not jump to another apparition, leave alone the unapproved one.
We must be responsible, and exercise care when speaking of apparitions in a judgmental manner.
Earlier someone said: Medj and Garabandal are not accepted by the Church…
While this is true, it is not accurate. Neither are they rejected, but that has been (hopefully through carelessness and not by intent) omitted and might make someone unfamiliar with those apparitions believe, and repeat, a falsehood, namely, that the Church has “rejected” them.
If the intent of an apparition is to strengthen the faith in a time of need (and it almost always is the intent), making careless statements lessons the impact, and therefore helps to keep the faith in its weakened state.
If God determines in His infinite wisdom that an apparition is necessary for the faith of the people, one should not then weaken its impact (we are free to do so, although it would be imprudent).
By speaking carelessly, one might just find themselves becoming tools of Satan, and doing his work instead of the work of God.
If one ventures to speak of an apparition, one should always present it honestly and accurately and fully to others, and avoid errors of omission, or risk punishment from the One who sent the apparition.