Marian devotion.....and when it gets too far?

#43

Mary IS God’s most perfect creature. He chose her to bear his son. This places her above all other creatures.She is the mother of God.
As perp,exec as you are re a devotion to her,I am equally perplexed as to why you wouldn’t want to be close to her.Christ gave her to us from the cross and we are blessed to have her as our mother.

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#44

She’s without sin. The perfect image of Christ. Is that not the goal? Is that not what we see in the Saints?

That’s biblical. He was obedient to them (Mary & Joseph)

Have you ever read Teresa of Avila, or John of the Cross?

I say womb & you think sexual relations? Or married? Neither has a sexual connotation.

I’m not following your logic. Do you believe Jesus was 100% God & 100% man? Where do you believe this union took place?

The language is a bit figurative but… you must be born of the spirit. This is done in the Church. Holy Mother Church, which Mary prefigured. We are formed, spiritually, in Holy Mother Church as Jesus was formed, physically, in Mary’s womb.

We must humble ourselves, become like children, trust the Church, be fed (body & soul) on the word, nourished on the sacraments.

Personally I had hangups about Marian devotion myself. But I felt she was calling me back to the Church. Then I learned about typology & how it connects Genesis to Revelation & everything in between.

Joseph, Moses, Solomon, Jesus

Ark, Tabernacle, Mary, Church

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#45

When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.”

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#46

I think the more crazy you go with authentic Marian devotion, the more you are going to love Jesus which is always a very very good thing.

True devotion to Mary is a Rocket Ship to Jesus. Our Lady always steps aside and she pushes her disciples towards her Son. (Really, she does.)

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#47

If you have access to Formed.org, there is a great Marian Bible study. https://stpaulcenter.com/studies-tools/journey-through-scripture/the-bible-and-the-virgin-mary/

Even though Biblical references to Mary are not a lot in number, they are extremely significant.

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#48

Pretty clearly John the beloved disciple. He wanted him to treat her as he would his own mother and vice versa.

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#49

Saying she’s the perfect image of christ is close to saying she is equal to God, in my opinion.

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#50

God is independent; all of who He is, is because of Himself. Mary is dependent on God’s Grace to be who she is. Please correct me if I’m wrong. @cjbhoward @atreju

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#51

Again. Do you go to mass? You pray to her at Mass if you pay attention to it…

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#52

No adoration, which is reserved for God alone. The Blessed Virgin Mary is a goddess however, by participation in the divine nature.

Catechism

460 The Word became flesh to make us " partakers of the divine nature ":“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

Latin: Ipse siquidem homo factus est, ut nos dii efficeremur.
English: For the Son of God became man so that we might be made gods.

Catechism

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

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#53

Careful here. You risk judging hearts when God alone knows our hearts.

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#54

Check your bible! Revelation 5:8 for one. The Saints in Heaven bear our prayers to the throne of God. They are perfect and we are not. They see God as He is, while we only imagine. We are parts of Christ’s Body and there is continuity, communication between all parts. It is a living - not dead - Body. And, you or I cannot pray to a Saint without also praying to God - it is inseparable. The problem in our age is that radical evangelicalism has deconstructed the faith, diluting and draining the richness and beauty out of it.

What you must realize is that we honor Mary because Christ honored her first. He created her to be His mother. Ponder that for a moment. Has Christ done anything that is sinful or embarrassing? No? Then honoring Mary as Christ did is also a good and holy thing to do. Mary is absolutely essential to the Gospel. Christ could have taken flesh just as Adam did - but no! He chose to be born of “woman” and that term is not one of derision, but of identification as to type, and of love.

Pray for understanding, as this is not the only aspect of the world’s most profound faith that is misunderstood.

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#55

Yes it is true. A good book to read on devotion to the Mother of God is:
The Glories of Mary
by Saint Alphonsus Liguori.
There are condensed versions of the book, but it is better to read the complete book which consists of about 500 pages.
The Glories of Mary (Liguori Classic) [Paperback] [2000] (Author) Saint Alphonsus Liguori

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#56

That’s nice, Bear. But it is a balance. God first & more often.

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#57

It is true that there are some groups around Fatima and Medjugorje that are downright cult-ish, such as those who militantly insist that the so-called “3rd secret” of Fatima was never released (yes, Pope John Paul II did release it) or that the so-called dedication of Russia was not done (yes, it was). I’m sure many Catholics have run into them on the internet or in real life. Some of these certainly take issues surrounding these things too far in their own interpretation, against the word of the Church and without the balance of moderation or perspective. Anyway, you don’t have to believe in such apparitions and/or be an apparition-chaser to have a sincere Marian devotion.

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#58

The Blessed Mother is our Spiritual Mom. She is a friend, as Jesus.
Yes, talk to her, as you talk to anyone in heaven. Our dead relatives & angels& Saints are there.
We pray to the FATHER(Our Father) we give praise & thanksgiving. Ending in Jesus name, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Then, Desr Blessed Mother, this s a prayer of mine. Could you continue the prayer before Jesus?
St. Bernadette, could you call nyinubthis prayer for me? ,etc
Hope that helps
The Catholic walk is a sweet walk. Enjoy it to your fullest.

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#59

You are correct.

Jesus is the way, Mary the gate.

Mary the shrine, the Holy Spirit the Temple Lord

I did think there’s no reason to pray through Mary as Jesus is so accessible & God is always near. Then I read St DeMontfort. I realized how tainted my prayers are with self love. According to St DeMontfort, Mary strips that self love from my prayers & presents them to Jesus pure & without stain.

Then praying the Psalms, it is clear God answers the prayers of the blameless, He protects & blesses the pure of heart. Well, that ain’t me.

So I pray to several Saints & holy people I know who have passed from this life. I pray through the Church, which to me is Praying through Mary & the Saints.

I still pray to God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit. But I know whether I say so explicitly or not (because St DeMontfort said so) my prayers are carried to the Holy Trinity through Mary & the Saints as depicted in Revelation.

The Lord of hosts is with us. The God of Jacob is my stronghold.

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#60

Only in the sense that you ask for the prayers of all the saints and all the church, together. She is equal to any sanctified person in that regard.

Do you realize here that you equate Mary to Jesus in our salvation? And in this analogy, you put Mary is primary before Jesus. And more, a gate is made to bar passage.

Your elaboration does not help, as it implies that Mary is necessary for our communion with God, rendering Jesus’ sacrifice insufficient and impotent.

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#61

Yes, in the Secret of Mary St Louis de Montfort says:

‘14. (8) Mary received from God a unique dominion over souls enabling her to nourish them and make them more and more godlike. St Augustine went so far as to say that even in this world all the elect are enclosed in the womb of Mary, and that their real birthday is when this good mother brings them forth to eternal life. Consequently, just as an infant draws all its nourishment from its mother, who gives according to its needs, so the elect draw their spiritual nourishment and all their strength from Mary’.

It was in Mary, by Mary, and from Mary that the Holy Spirit produced and formed his Masterpiece, Jesus Christ, a God-Man by the Hypostatic Union and a man-God by grace. But a mother does not produce the Head (Jesus Christ, Head of his Mystical Body) without the members or the members without the Head. And so the Holy Spirit produces and forms the members of Christ’s Mystical Body by grace in, by, and through Mary, Mother of the Church. St Louis de Montfort calls this a mystery of grace unknown to even the wisest and the most spiritual among Christians.

From the Secret of Mary:
16. (10) Mary is called by St Augustine, and is indeed, the “living mould of God” . In her alone the God-man was formed in his human nature without losing any feature of the Godhead. In her alone, by the grace of Jesus Christ, man is made godlike as far as human nature is capable of it. A sculptor can make a statue or a life-like model in two ways:
(i) By using his skill, strength, experience and good tools to produce a statue out of hard, shapeless matter;
(ii) By making a cast of it in a mould. The first way is long and involved and open to all sorts of accidents. It only needs a faulty stroke of the chisel or hammer to ruin the whole work. The second is quick, easy, straightforward, almost effortless and inexpensive, but the mould must be perfect and true to life and the material must be easy to handle and offer no resistance.

  1. Mary is the great mould of God, fashioned by the Holy Spirit to give human nature to a Man who is God by the hypostatic union, and to fashion through grace men who are like to God. No godly feature is missing from this mould. Everyone who casts himself into it and allows himself to be moulded will acquire every feature of Jesus Christ, true God, with little pain or effort, as befits his weak human condition. He will take on a faithful likeness to Jesus with no possibility of distortion, for the devil has never had and never will have any access to Mary, the holy and immaculate Virgin, in whom there is not the least suspicion of a stain of sin.
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#62

I don’t see Mary as primary, or equal to Jesus in our salvation. I see Jesus set Mary to task, just as he set St Peter, his Appstles, & the Church.

The Church is a gate to the way.

God gave you a mother by nature. She was necessary for you to physically enter this world. She isn’t equal to God in your creation.

Jesus gave you a mother by grace. She is necessary for you to return to God in spirit. She isn’t equal to Jesus, or a bar. She points to the way. She marks the way She is the sign in heaven. Clothed with the sun.

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