Marian Dogma .... required or emotional attachment?


#1

The Doctrines of Mary are Dogmatic in the Church and we are required to Assent to Dogma without question, so how is it then you need emotional attachment to do as we are required by Dogma?

We don’t we assent because it is Dogma… It would be nice if you also had an emotional attachment to Our Mother but that is not required.

There are some people that believe in God and Worship God too, but do not have an emotional attachment to Him, are we then to say to them that because of this you do not have to Worship God because you do not feel any emotional attachment to God? :eek:

We assent to the Doctrines, Dogmas, Traditions and traditions of the Church because Assention is required of us, not emotional attachment…

Pax Christi
Debi


#2

CHAPTER TWO
THE TRADITION OF PRAYER

ARTICLE 2
THE WAY OF PRAYER

2663 In the living tradition of prayer, each Church proposes to its faithful, according to its historic, social, and cultural context, a language for prayer: words, melodies, gestures, iconography. The Magisterium of the Church15 has the task of discerning the fidelity of these ways of praying to the tradition of apostolic faith; it is for pastors and catechists to explain their meaning, always in relation to Jesus Christ.

Prayer to the Father

2664 There is no other way of Christian prayer than Christ. Whether our prayer is communal or personal, vocal or interior, it has access to the Father only if we pray “in the name” of Jesus. The sacred humanity of Jesus is therefore the way by which the Holy Spirit teaches us to pray to God our Father.

Prayer to Jesus

2665 The prayer of the Church, nourished by the Word of God and the celebration of the liturgy, teaches us to pray to the Lord Jesus. Even though her prayer is addressed above all to the Father, it includes in all the liturgical traditions forms of prayer addressed to Christ. Certain psalms, given their use in the Prayer of the Church, and the New Testament place on our lips and engrave in our hearts prayer to Christ in the form of invocations: Son of God, Word of God, Lord, Savior, Lamb of God, King, Beloved Son, Son of the Virgin, Good Shepherd, our Life, our Light, our Hope, our Resurrection, Friend of mankind. . . .

2666 But the one name that contains everything is the one that the Son of God received in his incarnation: JESUS. The divine name may not be spoken by human lips, but by assuming our humanity The Word of God hands it over to us and we can invoke it: “Jesus,” "YHWH saves."16 The name “Jesus” contains all: God and man and the whole economy of creation and salvation. To pray “Jesus” is to invoke him and to call him within us. His name is the only one that contains the presence it signifies. Jesus is the Risen One, and whoever invokes the name of Jesus is welcoming the Son of God who loved him and who gave himself up for him.17

2667 This simple invocation of faith developed in the tradition of prayer under many forms in East and West. The most usual formulation, transmitted by the spiritual writers of the Sinai, Syria, and Mt. Athos, is the invocation, “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners.” It combines the Christological hymn of Philippians 2:6-11 with the cry of the publican and the blind men begging for light.18 By it the heart is opened to human wretchedness and the Savior’s mercy.

2668 The invocation of the holy name of Jesus is the simplest way of praying always. When the holy name is repeated often by a humbly attentive heart, the prayer is not lost by heaping up empty phrases,19 but holds fast to the word and "brings forth fruit with patience."20 This prayer is possible “at all times” because it is not one occupation among others but the only occupation: that of loving God, which animates and transfigures every action in Christ Jesus.

2669 The prayer of the Church venerates and honors the Heart of Jesus just as it invokes his most holy name. It adores the incarnate Word and his Heart which, out of love for men, he allowed to be pierced by our sins. Christian prayer loves to follow the way of the cross in the Savior’s steps. The stations from the Praetorium to Golgotha and the tomb trace the way of Jesus, who by his holy Cross has redeemed the world.


#3

“Come, Holy Spirit”

2670 "No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit."21 Every time we begin to pray to Jesus it is the Holy Spirit who draws us on the way of prayer by his prevenient grace. Since he teaches us to pray by recalling Christ, how could we not pray to the Spirit too? That is why the Church invites us to call upon the Holy Spirit every day, especially at the beginning and the end of every important action.

If the Spirit should not be worshiped, how can he divinize me through Baptism? If he should be worshiped, should he not be the object of adoration?22
2671 The traditional form of petition to the Holy Spirit is to invoke the Father through Christ our Lord to give us the Consoler Spirit.23 Jesus insists on this petition to be made in his name at the very moment when he promises the gift of the Spirit of Truth.24 But the simplest and most direct prayer is also traditional, “Come, Holy Spirit,” and every liturgical tradition has developed it in antiphons and hymns.

Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and enkindle in them the fire of your love.25
Heavenly King, Consoler Spirit, Spirit of Truth, present everywhere and filling all things, treasure of all good and source of all life, come dwell in us, cleanse and save us, you who are All Good.26

2672 The Holy Spirit, whose anointing permeates our whole being, is the interior Master of Christian prayer. He is the artisan of the living tradition of prayer. To be sure, there are as many paths of prayer as there are persons who pray, but it is the same Spirit acting in all and with all. It is in the communion of the Holy Spirit that Christian prayer is prayer in the Church.


#4

In communion with the holy Mother of God

2673 In prayer the Holy Spirit unites us to the person of the only Son, in his glorified humanity, through which and in which our filial prayer unites us in the Church with the Mother of Jesus.27

2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son "who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties."28 Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she “shows the way” (hodigitria), and is herself “the Sign” of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West.

2675 Beginning with Mary’s unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first “magnifies” the Lord for the “great things” he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:

Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.30

Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel’s greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst."31 Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men."32 Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel’s greeting, we make Elizabeth’s greeting our own. “Filled with the Holy Spirit,” Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed."33 "Blessed is she who believed. . . . "34 Mary is “blessed among women” because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord’s word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth.35 Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God’s own blessing: Jesus, the “fruit of thy womb.”

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"36 Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."37 By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: “Thy will be done.”

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the “Mother of Mercy,” the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender “the hour of our death” wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son’s death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing38 to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

2678 Medieval piety in the West developed the prayer of the rosary as a popular substitute for the Liturgy of the Hours. In the East, the litany called the Akathistos and the Paraclesis remained closer to the choral office in the Byzantine churches, while the Armenian, Coptic, and Syriac traditions preferred popular hymns and songs to the Mother of God. But in the Ave Maria, the theotokia, the hymns of St. Ephrem or St. Gregory of Narek, the tradition of prayer is basically the same.


#5

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40

IN BRIEF

2680 Prayer is primarily addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particularly by the invocation of his holy name: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners.”

2681 “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’, except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor 12:3). The Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the interior Teacher of Christian prayer.

2682 Because of Mary’s singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her.


#6

**PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH **
CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

963 Since the Virgin Mary’s role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ’ . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503

I. MARY’S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

965 After her Son’s Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . **Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512 **
970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514


#7
  • **II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN **
    971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own “pilgrimage of faith,” and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, “in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity,” "in the communion of all the saints,"518 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.

In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.519

IN BRIEF

973 By pronouncing her “fiat” at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son’s Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ” (Paul VI, CPG § 15).


#8

It is part of our Profession Of Faith to believe in Mary to begin with and if we do believe in Mary and everything that is taught to us about her by the Church then why would we NOT also feel compeeled even if out of duty to our Faith to accord Her the Veneration that God Himself has said she deserves?


#9

I know this a lot of reading people but surely some has something to say about the Blessed Mother …

I will make this a little simpler how many here believe that we are obligated to believe in and Venerate the Queen of Heaven?


#10

We are obligated to believe all that the Church teaches. This includes any teaching surrounding Our Lady.

However, Mary is not God, and we are not required to undertake extraneous Marian devotional exercises, however beneficial or worthy they may be. We are not required to swoon with ecstacy whenever we contemplate her Immaculate Heart. We are not required to pray the rosary or make novenas to Our Lady of Perpetual Help or any of her other manifestations. Her role is to guide us toward her son. For some, her guidance will be necessary. Others – for example, those whose own mothers were abusive and for whom the idea of motherhood is more a hindrance than a help – may find Marian devotions a distraction rather than an aid in the worship of Our Lord.


#11

I accept all doctrines/dogma of the Catholic Church. That being said, I’m not required to pray to or ask for help from Mary…now, of course I do as I do on occasion other saints. I recognize the worthiness of Mary and her part in salvation history. I fault no one who has a sincere devotion to her in accordance with her role (but not to the point where she even comes close to approaching the worship due only to God), but I have to tell you it’s only more difficult for me to develop any kind of devotion to Mary when I read stuff like this, and when I have to listen to people go on and on telling me it’s nearly required. I sat through a speech at an event by a very young Irish priest earlier this year who actually said (and this is a direct quote because I’ll never forget it), “I’ll go so far as to say if you don’t have a devotion to Mary, you can’t get to heaven.”

I was angry with this priest at first, and now I basically think he’s misguided and spoke without thinking. It’s sentiments like that which are against Church teachings and which many people trying to find the path home are led off the path. On occasion, I feel the inspiration to ask Mary for her prayers, I thank her when I see something which I know reached me through her prayers joined to mine to her Son, but in no way do I think there’s an obligation for me to maintain the level of devotion suggested in this post(s).

[edit–and I don’t have an abusive mother or a problem with the role of motherhood. I just don’t have this devotion–my devotion seems to be to Jesus in the Holy Eucharist]

Penitent


#12

How can our Mother be such a hindrance when one is instructed properly as to her role? And if she is our proper gateway to the Son because she also is in working coperation with the Son is Mediatrix … which is also her title … should not aptly then we maintain that belief in her is tantamount? If we believe in the Mother of God … then how is that we cannot then properly acknowledge that fact either in some way?

I am not saying that we are to express this devotion in the manner that some do, and you are right that is not required by the Church. Worship of the Mother is not required because it would be wrong of any of us to do so. She is after all the Highest of all the Saints, and she is after all a vehicle in which we use to aid us in furthering our devotion to Him, not to detrat from Him.

Could it not be that in such people as you have descibed that she would be a way to help them to overcome what their own Mother’s have instilled, and that maybe for them that is her role? Our Mother can work with us to help us as well, remember she too has been given the ability to care for us in a unique way, subservient in manner yes but also unique in purpose.


#13

What I’ve attempted to say is I don’t need to go through Mary to get closer to her Son–I’ve been blessed in my relationship with the Lord. And I don’t think He withholds Himself until we ask His mother to intercede. Some people I do believe benefit from more a devotion to Mary than others, and I guess I fit into the “other” category. And what do you mean by saying, “believe in the Mother of God.” I believe she is the Mother of God. I believe she looks at each of us as her children–but just as many children are highly independnet and not as “clingy” to their mothers, so it must be with us children and our spiritual mother. I’m not taking anything away from anyone or away from her beauty and goodness…I’m just saying it’s possible to know who she is, to value her, but to just not have the devotion that many seem to have and feel is required.

My prayers never go unheard by God…never. I can recognize Him in any situation, in any happening, in everything in my day. He hears me and He answers me…perhaps my recognition of this is the reason I for the most part go directly to Him with minimal requests for intercession by saints or St. Mary. Or, like I said in another thread, maybe she did a good job of leading me to her Son without my asking…

Penitent


#14

I think it would be difficult to be fully comfortable in the Catholic Church (at least here in the US) without some type of devotion to Mary in your actions being okay with you. After all, you have to go the Holy Days of obligation (assumption, Mother of God, etc), and you say the penitential rite at many masses (and I ask Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you …to pray for me). To not just be bowled over with horror at the whole thing, there must be some comfort there with personally expressed attention to Mary. What that exact level is, I don’t know, but there is some very minimal level there.

Although it was a bit, um, tough, for me as a convert from Methodism, I don’t see how a person can regularly ask for her intercession (at the penitential rite) and not develop some sort connection to her. She will no longer seem a total stranger if you keep addressing her. That’s just how life is.

But I don’t feel it is at all necessary to have your devotions (the official word) be Marian and not, say, be Eucharistic Adoration or the Stations of the Cross.


#15

That idea of going primarily directly to God in prayer is contrary to scripture.

The Isrealites complained against God 10 times and He finally sent serpents to bite them and many died, as described in Numbers 41.
There were over 1 million of them in the desert and they were praying to God day and night because of the serpents. Over 1 million people going directly to God in prayer. None of these prayers went unheard of by God. But again, God answered none of these prayers. Wasn’t doing directly to God in prayer enough? NO !!! God also wants us to go through intercessors. So the Jews finally overcame their pride and they asked Moses to pray for them. So Moses prayed for them, and only then, only after they had to through an intecessor, did God answer their prayers.
In the New Testament, in the book of James, he says the same thing. He recounts how it did not rain for 3 years. Just think, over 10 million Jews prayed directly to God, not using a holy and righteous intecessor. They prayed for rain day and night, every day, for 3 years. But that was not enough. ** God also wanted intecessory prayer from a holy and righteous intecessor**. So finally Elijah prayed for rain “and the earth brought forth its fruit”.

Finally, apostolic Tradition.  The prayers of the mass have come down from the apostles. That is why the Church is so strict in prohibiting any private changes in the prayers of the mass. One of those prayers that comes from the apostles which refers to the saints in heaven, **"on whose constant intecession we rely for help". ** Therefore it is God's teaching handed down in apostolic Tradition that we rely for help from the saints, through **their constant intecession **

God’s word in scripture and Tradition, as taught by the Church. What else do we need?


#16

[quote=dcdurel]That idea of going primarily directly to God in prayer is contrary to scripture.

The Isrealites complained against God 10 times and He finally sent serpents to bite them and many died, as described in Numbers 41.
There were over 1 million of them in the desert and they were praying to God day and night because of the serpents. Over 1 million people going directly to God in prayer. None of these prayers went unheard of by God. But again, God answered none of these prayers. Wasn’t doing directly to God in prayer enough? NO !!! God also wants us to go through intercessors. So the Jews finally overcame their pride and they asked Moses to pray for them. So Moses prayed for them, and only then, only after they had to through an intecessor, did God answer their prayers.
In the New Testament, in the book of James, he says the same thing. He recounts how it did not rain for 3 years. Just think, over 10 million Jews prayed directly to God, not using a holy and righteous intecessor. They prayed for rain day and night, every day, for 3 years. But that was not enough. God also wanted intecessory prayer from a holy and righteous intecessor. So finally Elijah prayed for rain “and the earth brought forth its fruit”.

Finally, apostolic Tradition. The prayers of the mass have come down from the apostles. That is why the Church is so strict in prohibiting any private changes in the prayers of the mass. One of those prayers that comes from the apostles which refers to the saints in heaven, **“on whose constant intecession we rely for help”. **Therefore it is God’s teaching handed down in apostolic Tradition that we rely for help from the saints, through **their constant intecession **

God’s word in scripture and Tradition, as taught by the Church. What else do we need?
[/quote]

Penitent, I agree with you. I have a smiliar approach. I accept Mary as the Christian’s spiritual mother, and I recognize her as the new Eve, but in my prayer life she doesn’t play a huge part. Having said that, however, I’m not saying that a deeper devotion to Mary is a bad thing–on the contrary, it can be wonderful. It’s just not the direction for me personally–as a new Catholic especially.

DCCurel, your comment at the start of the thread is frightening to me, and your supportive passages don’t support your stand at all. Christ is our true intercessor, and there is no error in routinely directing our prayers and supplications to Him. Just because God became fed-up with the whinings of the Jews after he had just saved them from their Egyptian captors, does not equate to a situation where we should not spill our hearts to God. Have you perhaps read Saint Augustine’s *Confessions? *Saint Augustine had a rich and profound prayer life, but he only mentions Mary a handful of times. He told God everything, and he was richly blessed by God, “life immuteable”. Saint Francis, as explained by G.K. Chesterton, also had a profound and personal relationship with God and a powerful life of prayer and dedication to God and man.

So, we see that Catholic tradition doesn’t support your observation. What about the Bible? Well, there are problems there for you, too. If we read the book of Hebrews, for example, we are reminded that we can enter “the most holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is His body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful.” (Hebrews 10:19-23) We are reminded that God protects His children like a mother hen protects her chicks from danger. We are to respect and honor God, but we also are not to hessitate to speak directly to Him, if we are not comfortable to offer (non-worship) prayers to Mary or the saints in heaven.

The problem with Marian devotion is only that sometimes it crosses the line and distracts us from Christ, from whom alone Mary receives her unique status in history. It also can lead to false teachings such as references being made to her as the “Co-Redemptrix”, which I addressed in an article at the link below. This remains a rough draft, but it has helped some in their understanding.

home.earthlink.net/~karlerickson/writer/id16.html


#17

PS. I remember when my family was going through RCIA, I mentioned a similar question to two of the brothers visiting from Mt. Angel Abbey (mtangel.edu/Monastery/monastery.htm) who were assisting with RCIA at our church. They not only said that there was no requirement for daily Marian devotion, but they also added that there is a danger to the believer in undertaking a prayer life which feels wrong to them. As Marian devotion was a bit of a hurdle to many of us in RCIA, this was a great encouragement.


#18

[quote=dcdurel]That idea of going primarily directly to God in prayer is contrary to scripture.
[/quote]

I disagree with your presentation in post number 15 above. First, Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant (than the old one). Jesus is a better choice of similarity to Moses than the saints. So I don’t really know what you mean by the quote I gave above. Yes, there is a mediator, and his name is Jesus. Furthermore, he is God. "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” From gospel of John. Also please see CCC 2593.

Prayer is first and foremost directed to God. We thirst for him!
Psalm 63:1 A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, You are my God; I shall seek You earnestly; My soul thirsts for You, my flesh yearns for You, In a dry and weary land where there is no water.

What is the prayer that Our Savior taught us?

(Of course, I do not deny the intercession of the saints!)


#19

[quote=Penitent]I accept all doctrines/dogma of the Catholic Church. That being said, I’m not required to pray to or ask for help from Mary…now, of course I do as I do on occasion other saints. I recognize the worthiness of Mary and her part in salvation history. I fault no one who has a sincere devotion to her in accordance with her role (but not to the point where she even comes close to approaching the worship due only to God), but I have to tell you it’s only more difficult for me to develop any kind of devotion to Mary when I read stuff like this, and when I have to listen to people go on and on telling me it’s nearly required. I sat through a speech at an event by a very young Irish priest earlier this year who actually said (and this is a direct quote because I’ll never forget it), “I’ll go so far as to say if you don’t have a devotion to Mary, you can’t get to heaven.”

I was angry with this priest at first, and now I basically think he’s misguided and spoke without thinking. It’s sentiments like that which are against Church teachings and which many people trying to find the path home are led off the path. On occasion, I feel the inspiration to ask Mary for her prayers, I thank her when I see something which I know reached me through her prayers joined to mine to her Son, but in no way do I think there’s an obligation for me to maintain the level of devotion suggested in this post(s).

[edit–and I don’t have an abusive mother or a problem with the role of motherhood. I just don’t have this devotion–my devotion seems to be to Jesus in the Holy Eucharist]

Penitent
[/quote]

Not to say that your priest was right or wrong, but he is supported in his assertion by both St Louis de montfort and St Alphonsus Ligouri a Doctor of the Church. I think you should maybe read De Montforts “True Devotion To Mary” and Ligouri’s
"The Glories Of Mary". I think they may give you a better of why we should be devoted to Blessed Mother.


#20

[quote=delorean_boy]Not to say that your priest was right or wrong, but he is supported in his assertion by both St Louis de montfort and St Alphonsus Ligouri a Doctor of the Church. I think you should maybe read De Montforts “True Devotion To Mary” and Ligouri’s
"The Glories Of Mary". I think they may give you a better of why we should be devoted to Blessed Mother.
[/quote]

I guess I would add only three additional observations here. First, the *Catechism of the Catholic Church (971, Devotion to the Blessed Virgin) *reminds us that devotion towards Mary is to be encouraged, but it should not cross that line to become like the adoration we extend only to our God and creator. Second, the CCC teaches us (817, Words to Unity) that our seperated bretheren “have a right to be called Christians”. I can guarantee that Protestants do not have a close relationship or understanding of Mary. This being the case, can’t we take from this that Mary is an important element of our salvation, but not a required element. Of course, one might also argue that, since they don’t have the whole truth, they are not accountable in the same we that we are. In this particular case, however, I think the observation is valid. Third, not every word uttered by a saint is necessarily worthy of blind acceptance today. Their lives were deemed extraordinary and worthy of contemplation, but not every word they spoke was necessarily absolutely correct. I recall that Saint Augustine, for example, made small comments or personal observations which were later proven incorrect by Church teaching. In his book on St. Francis, G.K. Chesterton also points out that the Church would have a great difficulty functioning in a practical sense if it adopted and implemented all of this saint’s teachings–e.g. complete non-ownership of property, etc.

In my own humble opinion, Penitent, I think your priest is in error. Having said that, though, I would encourage you to ask for the advice of another priest or someone else within the Church in a position of authority. I wouldn’t do this in the mindset that you are searching for the answer you want to hear, but be open and mindful of their response, if it differs from you and I hold to be true. Furthermore, I would be very grateful for you to pass on their words to me, if I am proven to be in error. I am a new Catholic, and I don’t want to encourage you in the wrong direction.


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