Marital relations questions


#1

There are two…

First, I’ve been reading Christopher West and Greg Popcak and they make it see like most women can climax during the marital act. :eek: I thought it was morally okay and actually fairly normal for a woman to need to be stimulated to climax either before (during foreplay) or after her husband does his thing inside her. :o

Two, are coupled allowed to touch each other “down there” briefly as a sign of affection between love making sessions? Like just day to day living, see each other in the shower, give a light touch, not to climax or anything, I know that’s wrong. I can’t seem to find a definitive answer on this. :confused:

Thanks.


#2

Climaxing together should be the goal, but West says it’s okay to manually stimulate the woman as needed for climax in the context of a completed act either before, during, or after (or all three).

As to the second question, one must draw the line between an affirmative touch and a sensual touch. There is nothing wrong, per se, with what you describe, but it is possible to be drawn to an occasion of sin in that circumstance. Most, I suspect, would say it is better to keep your touching above the waist so as not to be drawn to sin. One may not consent to sexual arousal if the intention is not to properly complete the marital act.


#3

Climaxing together should be the goal, but West says it's okay to manually stimulate the woman as needed for climax in the context of a completed act either before, during, or after (or all three).

As to the second question, one must draw the line between an affirmative touch and a sensual touch. There is nothing wrong, per se, with what you describe, but it is possible to be drawn to an occasion of sin in that circumstance. Most, I suspect, would say it is better to keep your touching above the waist so as not to be drawn to sin. One may not consent to sexual arousal if the intention is not to properly complete the marital act.


#4

I don’t agree with this.

Background: I’ve been married for 32 years to the same wonderful guy. We were virgins when we were married, and we’ve never been with anyone else. We are still enjoying an active sex life.

First question: Only a small percentage of women are able to climax during intercourse. Most women require manual or some other stimulation to be able to climax. So I believe that a “goal” of climaxing together is unrealistic and will lead to frustration if couples pursue it.

My husband and I find that it is much more pleasurable to climax at different times during the act of marriage so that we are able to concentrate on fully enjoying not only our own pleasure during climax, but the pleasure that our beloved experiences during their climax.

Second question: I see nothing wrong with touching sensually, assuming that the couple is alone and in a place where they have privacy. A lot of couples think that foreplay is something that they need to do for about 20 minutes before actually having intercourse. But foreplay can start hours or even days before making love. My husband and I “tease” each other throughout the day and all week along!

Yes, if this leads someone to commit sin, then it will have to be avoided. But for my husband and me, it’s a delightful way to prepare all day for the act of marriage.


#5

[quote="Cat, post:4, topic:233810"]
I don't agree with this.

Background: I've been married for 32 years to the same wonderful guy. We were virgins when we were married, and we've never been with anyone else. We are still enjoying an active sex life.

First question: Only a small percentage of women are able to climax during intercourse. Most women require manual or some other stimulation to be able to climax. So I believe that a "goal" of climaxing together is unrealistic and will lead to frustration if couples pursue it.

My husband and I find that it is much more pleasurable to climax at different times during the act of marriage so that we are able to concentrate on fully enjoying not only our own pleasure during climax, but the pleasure that our beloved experiences during their climax.

Second question: I see nothing wrong with touching sensually, assuming that the couple is alone and in a place where they have privacy. A lot of couples think that foreplay is something that they need to do for about 20 minutes before actually having intercourse. But foreplay can start hours or even days before making love. My husband and I "tease" each other throughout the day and all week along!

Yes, if this leads someone to commit sin, then it will have to be avoided. But for my husband and me, it's a delightful way to prepare all day for the act of marriage.

[/quote]

I don't take issue with anything you have said. It is very much the same for my wife and I. I was referencing PJ2's Theology of the Body. He said it should be a goal, not a hardfast rule.

As to the second point, I also agree with you within your circumstance. However, not all couples are capable of drawing the line where you do. Hence, my advice to determine what is affirmation and what is sensual. That is going to be different for each couple.


#6

I don’t understand - isn’t sexual pleasure NOT a sin between married couples? Why would married couples have to limit their touching to “above the waist” as you say? What is wrong with sensual pleasure within marriage? And is it official church teaching that every sexual touching MUST end and fully complete in the marital act? What about passionate kissing that does NOT end in the marital act?

This is so confusing - I don’t understand what kind of sexual acts are permissible in marriage and what kinds of sexual acts are NOT? I understand that artificial birth control is morally wrong, and that makes sense - but where on earth did you get the idea that every single sexual touching must fully complete in the marital act?


#7

[quote="NguyenKimPhat, post:6, topic:233810"]
I don't understand - isn't sexual pleasure NOT a sin between married couples? Why would married couples have to limit their touching to "above the waist" as you say? What is wrong with sensual pleasure within marriage? And is it official church teaching that every sexual touching MUST end and fully complete in the marital act? What about passionate kissing that does NOT end in the marital act?

This is so confusing - I don't understand what kind of sexual acts are permissible in marriage and what kinds of sexual acts are NOT? I understand that artificial birth control is morally wrong, and that makes sense - but where on earth did you get the idea that every single sexual touching must fully complete in the marital act?

[/quote]

The idea here is to avoid lust, which is wrong regardless of being married or not. Lust is seeking sexual pleasure of itself without having the procreative and unitive aspects. Above the waist was only a suggestion.

The information I give is not from my own opinions. It comes from TOTB as well as the Creighton Model of NFP, which is accepted by the church. It is, however, ultimately up to the individual's conscience regarding culpability of sin.

Touching in an affirming way, even if it is in the genital area, is okay. A sensual touch, as defined for the purpose of arousal, should be avoided.


#8

From the catechism of the Catholic Church.

2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood."157

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160

#9

Two camps.

Camp one. Anything a married couple does short of orgasm outside of the marital embrace is OK.

Camp two. Touching a spouse "there" without the intent of completing the act is masturbation (mutual or otherwise).

You will hear both here. And loudly.

The books I've read on TOB tend to support Camp one. Many traditionalists would claim that camp two is necessary to avoid the possibility of sin due to lust and improper sexual behavior. Both have very valid points.

I guess I would ask "is this kind of action really necessary for that time of the relationship?" Foreplay is meant as an action BEFORE the main event. If there is no intention for the main event, then what is the intention of the action?

"Teasing" as it were, is not a loving action. It takes away from the real purpose of the act.

However, as I have come to understand it, God created ALL parts of our bodies and the pleasure a spouse can give the other. No body part is ever "off limits" or "bad" sometimes and not another. Intent has more to do with this than anything. It's "bad" to have physical relations that are loveless.


#10

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