Marketing Atheism to Christians


#1

The conflict is very old and it pits those who serve the Lord Jesus Christ against those who believe in no God. The Atheist is not any different from anyone else, he or she lacks a relationship with God. The implications for the moral climate in America, and the West, is profound. In Europe, Chiurch attendance is down. Prostitution is very much out in the open. A sense of indifference has come into being regarding moral issues. An “it’s all good” or “what’s the big deal” attitude prevails about matters that are of concern to Christians everywhere. And with no real moral compass to guide them, what do people do? They engage in what is called “situational ethics” or they rely on “consent” where any act imaginable is permitted as long as the other party consents. This includes killing the old and sick, called by the euphemism, “euthenasia.”

Now, in the West, a program is underway to attempt to undermine Scriptural authority and Church teaching. It’s quickest method of spreading is on the internet through atheist and Christian forums. Also included are people who identify themselves as free thinkers, brights, secular humanists, anarchists, communists and leftists.

I will focus on Christian forums. The method of approach is simple. Instead of saying, “Hi, I’m an Atheist and let’s talk about how bad and dangerous God, the Church and beliefs in old, supposedly Holy Books are,” it takes an intellectual turn. “Hi, I’m an Atheist and I want to talk about science, reason and logic.” OK, fair enough. And here’s how that goes:

“OK, listen up. A six day creation as described in Genesis in your Bible is wrong. We have incontravertible proof that the earth is very old. We’ve got no proof of a global flood. So we got evidence and you’ve got bubkis.” If that was the whole of it, there wouldn’t be much of a problem but there’s more.

A Creation Museum opens in Ohio. A protest comes from a group called Rally For Reason, primarily supported by Atheists. The Museum presents evidence for men and dinosaurs living together and for other claims of the Bible. The connection is clear. Science is the Atheist beadrock faith and it cannot be brought into question. The Museum is denounced as filled with lies.

It is with this alleged evidence of science that Atheists hope to convince Christians that the Bible is wrong, our interpretation (official Church interpretation as presented in the Catechism of the Catholic Church) of parts of the Bible are wrong, and therefore, the Church should recognize this “science.”

This sustained campaign is going on all over the internet and through other media. “Your Bible is wrong, science is right. We have the evidence.” Evidence of what? What all Christians should know is that when the Church, through the Pope, make statements that are not fully supportive of their scientific claims, it is the believers in no God who are the most critical. They accuse the Pope of wanting to keep “job security,” and the Church of wanting to hold onto myth and fantasy. In other words, they want to spread their unbelief in God however they can.

And in a culture that calls prostitutes “porn stars” and strippers “exotic dancers,” and shows it on television, do we hear any protest from the unbelievers about these things? No. In fact, it’s legalize prostitution, legalize certain illegal drugs, a person should be able to do whatever they want to do with their own body: mutilate it, multiple sex partners, suicide. What’s the big deal?

Keep that in mind when those who say they have evidence tell you the Bible is wrong, even in part, and when you won’t accept their incontravertible evidence, call you ignorant, an IDiot, and a cretard and then they tell you to throw away your book of myths and fairytales, because my Brothers and Sisters in Christ, that is what this is really about; getting you to not believe or at least, make you act just like them and want what they want. Once again, it’s not “We want to give you science.” That does not explain their desperation. And it does not explain their digust at the Pope (or any religious person) when he does not fully endorse their evidence. That’s the moral part of it, the soul of the issue. They want Atheism to flourish, not the Godly.

God bless,
Ed


#2

Thanks, I always look forward to your latest rant.


#3

I, sir, do not rant I… You think I rant? really?

God bless,
Ed


#4

Perhaps rant is not quite the right term. But you do seem to start threads frequently that seem to be a bit preachy. They don’t seem to be about starting a discussion so much as warning your fellow Catholics about whatever evil (in your view) has been plaguing society for the last 40 years or so… a bit like a sermon from a particularly agitated clergyman.


#5

Ed started with a well spoken thread. Sounds like he hit a sore spot with you.


#6

Ed has a right to be outraged. The secular world has placed science on a pedestal, and the BIble in the gutter, which is rather idiotic, considering that science is static, and the Bible is constant. Every decade or so, science is overhauled or added to considerably, and people in the secular world believe it all…until its been completely changed a few years later. All this jumping from one “truth” to another, and they call us gullible!


#7

If you look at the person’s profile who responed to you Ed, you can see why that response. You hit a nerve.


#8

You all can squack about science all you want, but if it weren’t for science and the technology that flows therefrom your Mamas would still be washing clothes by beating them on the rocks.

Science is not static and if you wish to call the refining of knowledge changes in truth you can do so. I by no means am an atheist and find very little conflict between science and religion. Science is a particular way of understanding God’s universe as cosmology and religion offer other viewpoints of the same thing.

Your beef is really with some of the persons involved in science who are not able to understand their limitations as human beings and who want to practice science in areas where they do not belong; for example embryonic stem cell research. Not all, in fact many scientists, cannot be painted with this same tarry brush.

If it makes you feel productive by ranting and panting by all means do so, but bear in mind that God is in control and if things get really bad, I am sure he has means to handle it. Maybe a plague or bird flu that will kill millions and leave scientists with a blotched reputation because it will be beyond their ability to control it. Then those who don’t believe in God will turn around a blame him for their problems and we will start all over…


#9

Gregor Mendel was a monk and he worked out the law of inheritance. The first message sent by the inventor of the Telegraph, Samuel Morse (as in, Morse Code) was: “What hath God wrought?”

Then we have Sam Harris (a scientist) referring to other scientists even talking about religion as the “alien hiss” of religion, and how they are like “pod people” who look like scientists and act like scientists but are not.

The Atheist-Science Alliance (science = evolution) is trying for a Second Enlightenment. Time to get God and His followers “out of the way” of Science. Man is building a scientific Tower of Babel and people like Ray Kurzweil are predicting the day when artificial men are built. The irony there is that should this happen, they will obviously be examples of Intelligent Design.

And my point is, disbelieve science and they will attack your religion and Holy Book every time. So, it’s not about science.

God bless,
Ed


#10

Evolution is no threat to Catholics, so I am sorry if I don’t care too much about this one.


#11

Gentle edwest2…please know that we nontheists aren’t all your enemies. I think of you as a friends quite often, though we have perceptual disagreements. I know you to be a kindly person, and hope you see me as such.

Remember you can’t say nontheists all = X, other that they aren’t theists. Saying we all have a similar moral or ethical agenda is at the VERY least like saying all members of all religions (ie, theists) do Yeah, you and Bin Laden! It’s cat-herding! But no…it’s not that simple and that’s not the issue.

I can only speak as a lifelong secular, maybe the only only one on this form. But I can tell you, I am not your enemy. I have a conscience, and ethics and morals, strongly derived and supported. I do not care what you believe! You can believe invisible unicorns live in your nose - whatever you like! But that has nothing to do with me.

I don’t really ‘Believe’ anything. I ‘know’ and ‘understand’ some things and can demonstrate them, but I won’t say they are Everlasting Truth. They’re just what I can show you and what I (and you) can act upon.


#12

Here is how it comes across to me, early on a Sunday morning, stuffy head and all.

The OP is talking about all the bad things Atheists are doing to prove Christianity wrong etc.

I don’t argue that those things are taking place and that in many places in the world, culture is rather hostile to Christianity and many of it’s claims and teachings.

On the other hand…These tactics are pretty simply those of war. And indeed, Christians have been using them for a long time against, science, culture, etc. The difference being, that for some period of time, Christianity had the upper hand.

It has lost the upper hand.

I don’t know what that means on a supernatural level, but it does have many Christians scared and angry.

Maybe they haven’t heard that their side wins in the end? Or they are uncomfortable having to live in a culture that is not supportive of them.

Understandable reactions.

This could be some sort of great test, challenge and opportunity for Christianity. It could be considered an exciting time, a time of persecution in which the average man has the opportunity to test his metal against the world.

I know when I was growing up we were riveted by the bravery of the early Christians and the perils they faced on behalf of their faith. We secretly hoped that we would be likewise given the opportunity to shine for Christ. This could be Christianity’s finest hour for a long time.

These skirmishes have always taken place, and the pendulum has swung back and forth over which side has power.

Looking at history, I wonder why is isn’t crystal clear to everyone that when Christianity was the norm, life was better for everyone? Or was that somehow not the case?

I think this is the way it must be, with different ideologies, needs, cultures competing against one another. That is how we hammer out history. No doubt it is uncomfortable, for everyone, but more so for those who see themselves on the currently losing side.

I don’t think it is nearly as simple as the OP makes it. Atheists scientists against good Bible believing folk. Nothing is ever that simple. If the Bible was truly enough…so many of it’s followers wouldn’t be looking for gratification elsewhere. Not unless you believe Satan has more power and attraction than God.

I am not an atheist. I am quite religious, though not Christian. Many things in my current culture frighten me and make me uncomfortable, buy many also give me great hope for the future. And I don’t remember things being so much better 40 years ago either.

Every generation, rightly, needs to be alarmed at the bad in society, but also to be grateful for the good.

Science has done much to improve lives.
Not all scientists are atheist, or anti-Christian.
If you have a better way for people, get the word out there. don’t waste time saying “nanny nanny boo boo” about the “bad” guys, just show how/why what you have is better.

And read the end of the Bible…God wins.


#13

Ed,

You are right.


#14

Thank you.

Yes, the end of the story is Jesus Christ returning in power and glory. The devil loses. In the meantime, we are told: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:” I Peter 5:8

If I see a hole in the ground that my brother might fall into, I will warn him. We are told to encourage one another, to pray for one another. All of us are living through a time when men no longer want to endure sound doctrine. They have heaped up for themselves teachers, and though always learning, they are not coming to the knowledge of the Truth.

Yes, there are those who have no consideration of a god at all. They can be very good and moral people. Yet they do not hear the words from Jesus Christ, I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me.

What shall be their place at the time of judgement if they have heard but not believed? This is my question and not a judgement. For the Gospel of Christ is true and the fall of man in the Garden means man is born with a sinful nature.

40 years ago, in my community, there was an appropriate acknowledgement of God. We were taught politeness, modesty and to watch our speech. Not everyone went to the same church but most were good neighbors, willing to live together. There was such a thing as guilt and shame, and appropriate guidance and punishment from parents. Even the media reflected these beliefs and values.

Now, the exact opposite is being promoted. Filthy mouthed kids, teenage girls dressed like hookers, magazine covers with “singers” dressed like hookers. Parents who ‘herd’ their kids, feed them and clothe them, but don’t raise them. A media that puts on TV shows like Californication. I assure you, facts in hand, that things were much better 40 years ago.

Can’t we all just live our lives in peace, Christians going to Church and non-believers doing what they want? Apparently not. Instead of non-believers looking at believers who don’t accept their claimed scientific evidence saying, “Oh well. They don’t get it or don’t want to get, let’s leave them alone,” It’s militant atheist/freethinker/bright/secular humanist/anarchist/leftists saying, “No, we’re not going to leave them alone.” But again, the moment you don’t accept their evidence, it leads to personal insults, attacks on your beliefs, your Church and the Holy Bible. “But this is about science, which has nothing to say about God one way or the other.” No, it’s not.

God bless,
Ed


#15

I’d really rather atheists, agnostics, etc. didn’t leave the gloves on. If Christian thinkers can’t counter their best arguments, then we need to either do our homework, or concede that they might have a point. Me, I think that Christianity has excellent responses to the sorts of naive scientism that pass for recent critiques of religious belief, but some of us are underpracticed in articulating them. The intellect needs as much exercise as any muscle; let’s not disdain the chances that we’re offered. Keep it coming, my nontheistic friends.


#16

LOL. No, no sore spot here. He just seems to be angry at the world. I know what that’s like. I’ve been like that too. Perhaps I should have been a bit more charitable or said nothing at all.


#17

I think Harris, Dawkins, et al are helping Christianity in the long run, because they are cutting through the PC sentimentality about “religion-as-long-as-it’s-tolerant” and forcing people to choose between real religion and no religion. Pragmatically, most people faced with that choice will probably choose the challenge of real religion rather than the desolation of no religion. And even if only a minority do, I still think that benefits Christianity.

Ediwn


#18

Sorry to jump in but I have a little different perspective to throw out.

I think that there are some rabid athiests out there that are athiest out of some (to me) warped beliefs.

But I think most of what is driving athiesm is consumerism, and it is to make more money more than attack us on a truly theological level.

In my perspective, why does our modern media encourage drug use, illicit sex, and immorality? The answer is to make us spend our money, why does Burger King use Paris Hilton to sell hamburgers? To make money. Why does this work? They know that making us think we need these things to buy happyness will make us slaves to our emotions and then we will be easy to seperate from our money.

Look at happy, fulfilled Christians. They tend to not need as many of the “gadgets” of the world to buy happyness. They know that love and peace do not come in a bottle, or a jar, or in the new designer jeans, or the latest electronic gadgets. Not that we can’t buy any of those things, but that we tend to buy less of them and not be as over spending.

Our countries huge consumer debit is doing as much to hurt the family unit as drugs do. (in my opinion) Money “Problems” are a leading factor in many divorces. We need to learn to live within (or below) our means and learn how to spend time with our loved ones and enjoy our life on earth.

Just my (humble) opinion…

Peace and God Bless you all!


#19

Prostitution is still very much a despised profession. Bringing it out in the open mainly serves to protect prostitutes from abuse.

i would love to hear you repeat that when you are the one suffering hopelessly day in and day out from a torturous mortal illness.

I am a convert from such means. :smiley:

Do you have any idea WHY?


#20

(probably a bit off subject now since I didn’t read the entire thread, but…)

of course scientific theories change! how do you think it’s supposed to work? scientists can’t test hypotheses without getting it wrong a few or many times, and not much can be truly “proven” (like gravity) because it only takes one random instance of something contradicting the “truth” for it to be rendered untrue.

for all we know, I could toss and apple into the air and it might never fall back down. you can’t bash science for not getting everything right the first time. it’s not as convenient as having all of life’s answers laid out for you. science has to work for it. :wink:

a little back on track now. I don’t see why it’s anyone else’s concern if a sick person wants to use euthanasia to escape the physical pain in which they live. I’m (obviously, I’m sure) an atheist, and it’s my belief that nobody has an obligation to be alive. if someone is out-of-their-mind miserable and there’s nothing they can do to end their suffering short of death, I think it’s fine. sure, it’s a terrible thing when a friend or family member is lost, but what makes you think you have the right to say they shouldn’t do it? it’s their life, plain and simple.

I don’t think drugs are fine, but if someone wants to have multiple sex partners… once again, how is that your concern? drugs effect not just the people who use them. if someone goes driving when they’re stoned, they could injure or kill someone else. having several lovers isn’t going to hurt anyone who isn’t involved. neither is “mutilating” one’s body.

finally,

“They want Atheism to flourish, not the Godly.”

please tell me how this is any different than what religious people want, when the only reason I found this site at all was a page titled “12 Painless Ways to Evangelize”. :rolleyes:

I hope I haven’t offended anyone. I’m trying to be as polite as possible about my views.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.