Martin luther on his deathbed


#21

[quote=Maccabees]I don’t see why your upset as your Lutheran. Your church wouldn’t exist if not for Luther not compromising.
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If you did understand, you would be Protestant.


#22

Angainor
Did you know you have been prophecied by past saints and prophets? Shame on those or what that distant you from the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.


#23

[quote=Angainor]Our only responsibility is to the Truth…Jesus is The Truth.
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Yes, absolutely. All of us Catholics would agree. However, we believe that Jesus established a Church on Earth that would be free from error and could teach His truth as He wants us to know it. That mankind would know what He meant, would know the Truth with confidence.

There are so many different opinions in the Protestant world about many things, especially salvation (baptism? no baptism? faith alone? Jesus as personal savior?), that one really can’t know the full Truth without knowing Him in His Church. How can you be sure you know what He wants you to know? If the Holy Spirit leads all INDIVIDUALS to the truth (as my Protestant family believe) then why is there no consistancy regarding the single most important doctrine of our faith?

I hope you’ve thought about this and are considering learning more about the Catholic Church - every Catholic I know would be overjoyed if you returned home to Rome!! :slight_smile:


#24

[quote=Angainor]If you did understand, you would be Protestant.
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Funny you brought that up for I was protestant just like you.
I have been in you shoes and saw the reformation and the church through the rose colored glasses of Luther. The church has addressed the problems it had during Trent there is no need to keep protesting against Christ only church. Luther is told to us as a saint of protestantism research the man he wasn’t any such thing he was an anti-semite, anti-catholic, anti-anabpatist etc
he drank to much, cussed to much and most improtantly made up doctrine to justify his break from Christ Church.

The Church is the Body of Chirst and we should be one as Christ and the Father are one. I did not say this Christ did. Luther by his disobedience shattered the body of christ into many sects. Sola scriptura is a vehcile for confusion leading to division after division in the body of christ. The papacy has been the only vehicle which has held christiantiy together.
Luther was a mad man who thought he was living in the last days so breaking the church in part was meaningless to him as he didn’t see a future 500 years later and 30,000 denominations. He was his movement as the real catholic church and the Pope as anti-christ and the church as Babylon playing out the sequences of the last days with Christ second coming in his own lifetime. Alsa the mad drunk was wrong and 500 years later the catholic church is till here while his movement has disintergrated into 30,000 competing factions and into severe doctrinal relativism.


#25

[quote=Angainor]There we have it. Where is the justice? Excommunicated! For what? Denying Christ? Nope. Luther denied the Pope.
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Luther denied the Papacy, which was established by Christ.

It is one thing to say “Pope so-and-so has commited these acts of corruption, this must be dealt with”. Another entirely to say, “Because of this corruption, I will defy the Papacy and set up my own Church” - which is what Luther did.


#26

I don’t know much about Luther on deathbed. but King Charles II formally converted to Catholic on his deathbed


#27

[quote=Angainor]There we have it. Where is the justice? Excommunicated! For what? Denying Christ? Nope. Luther denied the Pope.
[/quote]

the pope was instituted by Christ, as was his Church, so to deny part of Christ, is to deny all of Christ


#28

For those interested in reading the quote from St. Teresa of Avila regarding her visions of Lutherans in hell:

“This vision, too, was the cause of the very deep distress which I experience because of the great number of souls who are bringing damnation upon themselves – especially of those Lutherans, for they were made members of the Church through baptism.”

The link below will allow you to read the entire account:
(Taken from catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catholicclassics/stteresa/life/teresaofavila8.cfm#CHAPTER%20XXXII)


#29

[quote=Maccabees]Excommunicated means cut off from the church.
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As far as Catholics are concerned, Excommunication is the withholding of the real presence of Christ which is necessary for salvation.

A person chose to excommunicate someone because that someone refused to acknowledge his authority. The Pope would have every right to kick Martin out of his little club, but as far as the Pope was concerned, he was kicking Luther completely out of God’s family.

That goes against any sense of Natural Justice. That goes against Jesus words “Nobody gets to the Father except by me.”


#30

[quote=Angainor]As far as Catholics are concerned, Excommunication is the withholding of the real presence of Christ which is necessary for salvation.

A person chose to excommunicate someone because that someone refused to acknowledge his authority. The Pope would have every right to kick Martin out of his little club, but as far as the Pope was concerned, he was kicking Luther completely out of God’s family.

That goes against any sense of Natural Justice. That goes against Jesus words “Nobody gets to the Father except by me.”
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Angainor, Luther knew the rules. He knew exactly what was required of him as a priest and what would get him excommunicated. He chose his path himself with full knowledge.


#31

[quote=Angainor]As far as Catholics are concerned, Excommunication is the withholding of the real presence of Christ which is necessary for salvation.

A person chose to excommunicate someone because that someone refused to acknowledge his authority. The Pope would have every right to kick Martin out of his little club, but as far as the Pope was concerned, he was kicking Luther completely out of God’s family.

That goes against any sense of Natural Justice. That goes against Jesus words “Nobody gets to the Father except by me.”
[/quote]

Keep in mind that the Pope serves the Church, not the other way around, and he keeps in mind what is best for Christendom. When a sheep is spreading disease among the flock, it is best to remove it until its health is restored. If Luther had recanted and shown some humility in the face of 1500 years of sacred Tradition, the Church would have received him with open arms, like the prodigal son. Pride was ultimately Luther’s downfall… funny it was also Lucifer’s. Don’t follow in their footsteps.


#32

This reminds me of a scripture passage which goes like this…

But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matt 18 :~17

Martin Luther wouldn’t listen to the Church and wasn’t satisfied with it so he started his own.
I don’t recall seeing that in the Bible.


#33

[quote=Angainor]As far as Catholics are concerned, Excommunication is the withholding of the real presence of Christ which is necessary for salvation.

A person chose to excommunicate someone because that someone refused to acknowledge his authority. The Pope would have every right to kick Martin out of his little club, but as far as the Pope was concerned, he was kicking Luther completely out of God’s family.

That goes against any sense of Natural Justice. That goes against Jesus words “Nobody gets to the Father except by me.”
[/quote]

Well Jesus also said to the apostles those who listen to you listen to ME those who obey you obey ME.
Luther stopped listening and obeying the apostolic office and obeyed himself that is grounds for excommunication.
Jesus also gave the power and bind to the apostolic offfice and keys of the kindgome to the office of Peter. So according to Jesus it is Peter’s call for excoummication and not Luther’s or yours. Its funny how you think heaven is a democracy it is not it is a kingdom and on earth Peter hold the ultimate authority given to him by Christ not Luther not you. Your sense of Natural Justics is not Jesus. Peter’s Club is ultimately Jesus Club don’t make the same mistake Luther did and seperate yourself from Christ Church. Luther is just a disobedient whining child who didn’t get his way and started his own club the Lutheran church. Its not the Club that Jesus Started you know Peter’s Club. Your fail to recogniae that Luther choose his path the Pope gave him every opportunity to stay in teh church but Luther choose heresey. During the conflict with Luther the Pope cleaned up the selling of indulgences Tetzel was demoted. The immediate problem was fixed but Luther than choose to futher divide himself form the church by choosing other doctrine to protest against. These doctrines were not in abuse but a part of holy tradition. Luther was putting himself above 1500 years of holy tradition. The church could not compromise there.


#34

I know this thread is Apologetics…but I really thought, think, it’s all about loving and caring … “How can you say you love God, whom you cannot see, if you cannot love your neighbour whom you can” Also Mary McKillop the foundress of our Australian St. Joseph Sisters on her excommunication stated: "I have never felt closer to God"
I am sure in my mind that if the person had the rules and regulations all screwed up for some reason, but was a loving and caring person, we may well have to eat all our words…and that includes me and my important rules and regulations, concepts, ideas etc. etc.
“Not all who say Lord! Lord! shall enter my Kingdom”… startling words! And if we have got all the regulations and rules absolutely spot on and are not loving and caring of each other (neighbour)?.. I think it is obvious well all need our knees re salvation “Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling” and at times I do…indeed indeed I do!

7.119m


#35

[quote=ddimitro]For those interested in reading the quote from St. Teresa of Avila regarding her visions of Lutherans in hell:

“This vision, too, was the cause of the very deep distress which I experience because of the great number of souls who are bringing damnation upon themselves – especially of those Lutherans, for they were made members of the Church through baptism.”

The link below will allow you to read the entire account:
(Taken from catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catholicclassics/stteresa/life/teresaofavila8.cfm#CHAPTER%20XXXII)")
[/quote]

Hello ddimitro -
I may well stand corrected, but as I understand things, there is no obligation on The Faithful to hold to either the writings or visions of saints, declared by The Church as saints, whatsoever. Although there seems to be some contradiction because as I understand it their writings would be held questionable by The Church if she felt they contained error(s). As I further understand our declared saints position, they are declared saints because of the outstanding/heroic virtue their lives have displayed. Again as I understand things, there are two types of visions: intellectual and imaginary. Imaginery visions are interpreted and presented by the senses. Intellectual visions are impressed upon the intellect.

Regards
Barb
7.55pm


#36

[quote=BarbaraTherese]Hello ddimitro -
I may well stand corrected, but as I understand things, there is no obligation on The Faithful to hold to either the writings or visions of saints, declared by The Church as saints, whatsoever.
[/quote]

Yes, you are correct. Someone had inquired about the entry from St. Teresa, so I just provided it for reference.

It is private revelation, so we are free to believe or to not believe.


#37

[quote=Angainor]As far as Catholics are concerned, Excommunication is the withholding of the real presence of Christ which is necessary for salvation.

(1) Well, thanks for telling me what I believe. I alway go to a Lutheran to learn what my Catholic faith is really all about. :mad:

A person chose to excommunicate someone because that someone refused to acknowledge his authority. The Pope would have every right to kick Martin out of his little club, but as far as the Pope was concerned, he was kicking Luther completely out of God’s family.

(2) Again, you seem to know an awful lot about what the Pope was thinking when he excommunicated Martin Luther for his refusal to recant his heretical theology. Your speculation is not very convincing.

That goes against any sense of Natural Justice. That goes against Jesus words “Nobody gets to the Father except by me.”

(3) Martin Luther “held the keys to his own cell door” so to speak. If he had recanted he would most likely have been received back into the Faith with full forgiveness of his prideful boast that he knew more than 1500 years of Church teaching and tradition. As for the final destination of his soul, not even the Catholic Church knows for certain where it resides.
[/quote]


#38

[quote=Angainor]A person chose to excommunicate someone because that someone refused to acknowledge his authority.
[/quote]

“But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen.” Matt 18 :17

A heathen would be one outside the Church. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. One need only reject their heresy to will be welcomed back to the bosum of the Church.

Yours in Christ.


#39

I don’t know much about Luther on deathbed. but King Charles II formally converted to Catholic on his deathbed

And Charles I, according to his own words, would be Catholic but not Roman Catholic - although he did have much more reverence for the Pope than many if not most Catholic princes. Before his execution, he said he was dying as a member of the Church of England, though.

There we have it. Where is the justice? Excommunicated! For what? Denying Christ? Nope. Luther denied the Pope.

Questioning the grounds of papacy was practically always coupled with questioning the social order, which would lead to civil wars. Also, it was rarely done on merely doctrinal grounds. Someone always had beef with Rome before coming up with some doctrinal hanky panky to challenge the Petrine primacy.

Luther challenged the doctrine. “Fixing” the Bible surely counts as grounds for excommunication, doesn’t it? Wouldn’t a Protestant pastor be kicked out for preaching his own version of the scripture?

Also, many Catholic theologists had a problem with Luther’s doctrinal twists to get rid of his vow of chastity, as he was a monk, to marry an ex-nun.

I’m not trying to judge, and I sincerely hope he’s in heaven, but he did more than needed to have excommunication coming down his way.

Lefebvre was excommunicated for less and he didn’t even question papacy, nor even the legitimacy of the post Vaticanum II popes.


#40

[quote=Angainor]Our only responsibility is to the Truth, not to Cathoicism.I don’t claim Luther’s doctrines were flawless. Luther was not The Truth (although he may have tought some truths). Catholicism is not The Truth (although it may teach some truths). Jesus is The Truth.

Luther stood up to the institution of Catholicism that had an over developed sense of its own self-importance.The Catholic Church would not have me at this time. I will be content with my membership in the catholic Church of all true believers. No mortal man can deny membership in that Church.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church is the True Church which Christ set up in the first century. It began in 33AD. There was no Christian outside of it until the 2nd milenium. Luther is a heretic who left the Church when he denied the authority.

Yes, Jesus is the truth. That is why the Catholic Church is true. If Jesus was not the truth, then the Catholic Church would not be true. Everything the Catholic Church teaches is truth. The reformers put themselves outside the Church when the denied the authority of the Church in Rome.

Since Catholicism is true, and it is the Church which Christ founded, your responsibility is to maintain the truth inside the Catholic Church.


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