Martin Luther


#1

I read somewhere that Martin Luther was devoted to Our Lady. Does anyone know where I can find more information on this topic?


#2

[quote=Mrs P]I read somewhere that Martin Luther was devoted to Our Lady. Does anyone know where I can find more information on this topic?
[/quote]

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM

catholicapologetics.org/ap080300.htm

unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/luther.htm

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc2.htm

G.Grace


#3

Thanks for the many sources! God bless you!


#4

The United Church of Christ, the current “uber-cool” church of choice with the slick tv ads, has an interesting review of the recent movie about Luther hailing him as a “hero.” ucc.org/ucnews/nov03/luther.htm


#5

“Luther” follows the same tradition of a defiant hero battling a powerful and oppressive force—the medieval Catholic Church.

Quote from ucc.org/ucnews/nov03/luther.htm

This review, typical of all commentaries, films, and presentations about Luther, tells the lie about the hero verses the giant, monolithic, evil Catholic Church.

The truth is that Luther split Christendom into thousands of denominations, with wounds so severe that gangrene has set in; approved the bigamy of Phillip of Hesse and sent his co-conspirator Melanchthon as his witness of the event; said he could find no Scriptural basis for forbidding polygamy and did not oppose its practice; was a great sinner and encouraged others to sin; urged mankind to “sin and sin strongly”; taught that one could commit adultery or murder a thousand times a day and not lose his salvation; cut eleven books out of the Bible; invented such pernicious doctrines as Sola Scriptura and Sole Fide; was violently anti-Jewish and became the model for the Nazi’s; and still he’s a hero credited with restoring “biblical purity” to Christianity.

Go figure.

This bull-oney about the glorious “Great Deformer” – uh, Reformer – turns my stomach.

JMJ Jay


#6

Well, I pray that a friend of mine who thinks that the only difference between Catholics and Lutherans is the Pope and devotion to Our Lady will come a step closer to the church after reading about Luther’s Marian beliefs. Just looking for some common ground.


#7

[quote=Mrs P]Well, I pray that a friend of mine who thinks that the only difference between Catholics and Lutherans is the Pope and devotion to Our Lady will come a step closer to the church after reading about Luther’s Marian beliefs. Just looking for some common ground.
[/quote]

Does your friend know about Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide? These false doctrines are basic to Lutheranism and to all Protestant churches. There’s more that separates Lutherans and Catholics than she has told you. It’s good to point out Luther’s never-changing high regard for and devotion to the BVM, however. Its a beginning point.


#8

One quote that Katholikos likes to use is Luther’s “Sin Boldly’ quote… although I have noticed that he rarely if every posts it in its entirety and usually finds a translation that fits his need at the time.

It is one of my favorite quotes by Luther.

This is the quote in its best translation…

If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness, but, as Peter says, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly–you too are a mighty sinner.

What is Luther stating in this quote?

That we are by nature sinners and we need to be aware of that fact. We are not perfect creatures and we will sin. Luther then uses an extreme example that people tend to take out of context with the statement, “even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.” First off he is not talking about any one particular person but all of humanity on this earth – as you can see by the previous statements. Irregardless the message is the same.

Jesus’ ability to forgive is greater than our ability to sin. If one has faith and confesses their sins before God then those sins will be forgiven. Do not go before God and pretend that you are a sinner… we are sinners there is no reason to pretend. Bare you’re sins before God loudly because we should rejoice in his ability to forgive.

This does not mean – “Go out and sin – have fun.” This goes against the very foundations of what Luther said and Lutheranism as a whole. Could one person go and commit murder and rape a thousand times a day and still get into heaven. Theoretically yes but highly unlikely. If someone is capable of doing such acts then there is a very good chance that they have rejected God on one level or another. If someone thinks that they have a get out of jail free card and sin out of joy and not regret then they have undoubtedly rejected God.

In reference to the polygamy argument… Luther was in a catch 22 and made a bad choice. You will just have to read about history to find out the specifics. Luther did express regret about bending his words so that polygamy could be overlooked. Luther was not a Pope and made mistakes – I suppose he could have demanded Gentiles get circumcised back in the day. :rolleyes:


#9

prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/i_l-rc_just.html

Joint Lutheran - Catholic Statement on Justification


#10

for the longest time i was told that the catholic church is the only church who believes in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Just recently i found out the lutherans believe in this as well. Why was i told differently ? what the heck is the difference between us and lutherans anyway? They think we pray to saints and mary but we really ask them to pray for us. is their holy communion not really the true presence because they dont have holy apostolic successtion? please help!


#11

[quote=crazyage3]for the longest time i was told that the catholic church is the only church who believes in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Just recently i found out the lutherans believe in this as well. Why was i told differently ? what the heck is the difference between us and lutherans anyway? They think we pray to saints and mary but we really ask them to pray for us. is their holy communion not really the true presence because they dont have holy apostolic successtion? please help!
[/quote]

Hey crazyage3!

Lutherans don’t believe in the real presence in the Eucaristst in the same way as we, catholics, do. No transsubstitution take place. No bloodless offer. The meal is symbolic. But they think Christ is more near them under the meal than he is usually.

The luteran priests don’t have apostolic succession. They don’t think that the Catholic Church was instituted by Christ.

newadvent.org/cathen/04322a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/09458a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm

Blessings!

G.Grace


#12

[quote=crazyage3]for the longest time i was told that the catholic church is the only church who believes in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Just recently i found out the lutherans believe in this as well. Why was i told differently ? what the heck is the difference between us and lutherans anyway? They think we pray to saints and mary but we really ask them to pray for us. is their holy communion not really the true presence because they dont have holy apostolic successtion? please help!
[/quote]

Dear,

You will find the best statements in the official dialogues sponsored by the Holy See. Look at the link I’ve posted earlier and other docuements you can access from that same site.


#13

[quote=Gratias Grace]Hey crazyage3!

Lutherans don’t believe in the real presence in the Eucaristst in the same way as we, catholics, do. No transsubstitution take place. No bloodless offer. The meal is symbolic. But they think Christ is more near them under the meal than he is usually.

The luteran priests don’t have apostolic succession. They don’t think that the Catholic Church was instituted by Christ.

G.Grace
[/quote]

Lutherans do believe in the real presence; however, we do not believe that anything leaves the bread that causes it to cease to be bread. I suppose that the common statement that one hears is that Christ is in, with, and under the bread. The Catholic view stands that the bread no longer exists.

Meal is not symbolic to a Lutheran and Christ is Present in the Eucharist.

Lutheran priests do believe in apostolic succession although this has become an argument as to whether or not it is anaphora or not. Luckily there are some orthodox Lutherans still in existence and are making their voices heard. I put this quote on another thread today when dealing with the same question.

… it is our greatest wish to maintain the old church regulations and the government of bishops, which one terms canonicam politiam [canonical polity], provided the bishops allow our doctrine and receive our priests.
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, XIV, 24

Anyways here is an example of the tracing of a line of one Lutheran Priest…
Gregory Petros VIII, Catholicos-Patriarch of Cilicia of The Armenians, consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
Leon Chorchorunian on 7 April 1861 A.D. as Titular Archbishop of Malatia. Archbishop Chorchorunian consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
Leon Chechemian on 23 April 1879 A.D. as “a Bishop at Malatia, Asia Minor”. Bishop Chechemian consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
James Martin on 2 November 1890 A.D. as Archbishop of Caerleon-upon-Usk. Archbishop Martin consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
Benjamin Charles Harris on 25 July 1915 A.D. as Bishop of Essex. Bishop Harris consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
Charles Leslie Saul on 17 November 1944 A.D. at St. Paul’s Church, Outwood, near Radcliffe, Manchester, England. On 8 September 1945 A.D. Bishop Saul was given the title and position of Archbishop of Suthronia in the Eparchy of All the Britons. Archbishop Saul consecrated s.c. to the sacred Episcopate:
Herman Philippus Abbinga on 28 November 1946 A.D. as Missionary Bishop for Holland and Indonesia, assisting Mar Georgius of the Catholic Apostolic Church and Bishop Richard Kenneth Hurgon of The Order of Christ Our Most Holy Redeemer and King. Bishop Abbinga consecrated s.c. to the Sacred Episcopate:
Perry Nikolaus Cedarholm on 31 May 1953 A.D. in Oslo, Norway, as Bishop of Scandinavia for The Apostolic Episcopal Church. Bishop Cedarholm consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
Nils Bertil Alexander Persson on 12 December 1971 A.D. with the title of Mar Alexander, Titular Bishop of Smyrna. Bishop Persson is Director of St. Ephrem’s Institute for Eastern Christianity Studies (founded in 1896 A.D.). He was enthroned as Primate of The Apostolic Episcopal Church on 7 November 1986 A.D. Archbishop Persson consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
Karl Julius Barwin on 5 August 1989 A.D. as Primate of The Evangelical Catholic Church, assisted by Archbishop Emile Federico Rodrigues y Fairfield (Iglesia Ortodoxa Catolica Apostolica Mexicana), Bishop Carroll T. Lowery (The Apostolic Episcopal Church), Archbishop Arthur J. Garrow (The Archiepiscopate Ordinariate of Healing Arts Missionaries & Chaplains in America) and Bishop Howard D. van Orden (Order of St. Jude), each assisting, coöperating and co-consecrating by laying on hands and uttering all the words of consecration. Assisting in this consecration as Co-Consecrators were Archbishop Paul Christian Gerald W. Schultz (Archbishop of Los Angeles and Administrator of The Philippine Independent Catholic Church in The Americas), Bishop Petros (Eric Tan Ong Veloso, Orthodox Catholic Church in The Philippines), Bishop Christopher J. Rogers (Suffragan Bishop of Los Angeles, The Philippine Independent Catholic Church in The Americas), and Bishop Marciel (Michael Marshall, Orthodox Old Catholic Church).


#14

Russian Orthodox Church Through Saint Peter
Bishop Aleksij (Sergiy Vladimirovich Simanskij, 1877-1970) was consecrated 28 April 1913 by Patriarch Gregorios IV of The Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All The East in Russia as Bishop of Tichvin. In 1945 he was elected Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia. Patriarch Aleksij, assisted by Metropolitan Nikolaj (Boris Dorofeevic Jaruevic), Archbishop Makarij (Sergej Konstantinovic Daev), Archbishop Jurij (Vjaeslav Michaijlovic Egorov), Bishop Aleksij (Viktor Aleksandrovic Konoplev) and Bishop Pimen (Sergij Izvekov), consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
Bishop John (Konstantin Nikolaevich Wendland, 1909-1989), Patriarchal Exarch of The Russian Orthodox Church in America, on 28 December 1958. On 3 August 1963 Bishop John became Metropolitan of The Russian Orthodox Church in America. He was recalled to Russia on 10 July 1967. Metropolitan John, assisted by Bishop Dositheus (Michail Ivanchenko of The Russian Orthodox Church in America), consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
Bishop Joseph (Joseph John Skureth, 01/08/1933 – ), as Exarch, The Western Orthodox Catholic Church in America, Exarchate of The Patriarchates of Moscow and Antioch (a Western Rite body within The Russian Orthodox Church in America) on 17 April 1966. Bishop Dosifej (Dositheus/Michail Ivanchenko) had ordained Bp. Joseph priest on 3 July 1963. Exarch Joseph is also affiliated with The Syrian-Antiochian Orthodox Church. Bishop Joseph, assisted by Archbishop Francisco de Jesus Pagtakhan (The Philippine Independent Catholic Church, Manila) and Bishop Lawrence Lee Shaver (The Philippine Independent Catholic Church in The Americas), consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
Bishop Bertil (Nils Bertil Alexander Persson, 11/10/1941 – ) as Archbishop of The Apostolic Episcopal Church on 28 February 1989). Archbishop Bertil, together with Archbishop Emile Federico Rodrigues y Fairfield (Iglesia Ortodoxa Catolica Apostolica Mexicana), Bishop Carroll T. Lowery (The Apostolic Episcopal Church), Archbishop Arthur J. Garrow (The Archiepiscopate Ordinariate of Healing Arts Missionaries & Chaplains in America) and Bishop Howard D. van Orden (Order of St. Jude), each assisting, coöperating and co-consecrating by laying on hands and uttering all the words of consecration, and assisting in this consecration as Co-Consecrators by Archbishop Paul Christian Gerald W. Schultz (Archbishop of Los Angeles and Administrator of The Philippine Independent Catholic Church in The Americas), Bishop Petros (Eric Tan Ong Veloso, Orthodox Catholic Church in The Philippines), Bishop Christopher J. Rogers (Suffragan Bishop of Los Angeles, The Philippine Independent Catholic Church in The Americas), and Bishop Marciel (Michael Marshall, Orthodox Old Catholic Church), consecrated to the Sacred Episcopate:
Bishop Karl (Karl Julius Barwin, 10/16/1943 – ) as Primate of The Evangelical Catholic Church on The Feast of Saint Addai and Saint Mari (5 August) 1989, in The Chapel of The Holy Guardian Angels in Glendale, California.


#15

[quote=Shibboleth]Lutherans do believe in the real presence;
[/quote]

In the “Surprised by thruth” - books you will find good explanations about that “the luthean real presence” are not so real as you think. **You don’t belive in the transsubstitution. **

[quote=Shibboleth]The Catholic view stands that the bread no longer exists.
[/quote]

Here you confirm that only catholics belive in transsubstitution. The sacrifice is real (the same) for catholics. The luterans don’t look upon it that way.

[quote=Shibboleth]Meal is not symbolic to a Lutheran and Christ is Present in the Eucharist…
[/quote]

There are differences between the many protestant (lutheran) churches in how they look upon this. But in the last years it has become more and more common for lutherans to see the Eucarist as a meal (a communion). That is a beginning of that some day perhaps lutherans and catholics can celebrate Holy Communion together as **one ** meal.

To day catholics cannot participate in a lutheran Eucarist because there is doubt about if the lutheran Eucarist is valid.

Today it is not a comon held position between luterans and catholics that lutherans also have apostolic succession. A list that shows that some lutheran priests can trace their “inheritance” back to earlier catholic priests or bishops does not make every lutheran priest a successor of the original 12 apostles. And what about the lutheran women-priests?

I reccomand the Vatican’s webpage for further information:
vatican.va/phome_en.htm

G.Grace


#16

The official dialgoues have shown that Catholics and Lutherans have a substantial common belief in the Real Presence of the Eucharist. Certainly, both communities have soem differences in exactly how they understand Real Presence.


#17

So as a Catholic I believe that the bread and wine cease to exist once becoming the body and blood. For instance, I believe that it IS Jesus and I show reverence to it. What do Lutherans do? Do you believe you are eating the flesh literally? How does it become this without transubstantiation? And rather than Martin Luther breaking away from the Church why didnt he continue being a prie st in the Catholic church but ignore the wicked ways of others? Doesnt Paul say there is only one CHurch? I have also heard that right before Martin Luther died he was upset at how segregated the church had become. Meaning he never meant for a seperation but rather a “purification”.


#18

[quote=crazyage3]Do you believe you are eating the flesh literally?
[/quote]

I believe they do.


#19

then katherine what is the difference? is it that we dont believe in their real presence?


#20

The difference is this. The Catholic Church believes in transubstantiation in that although the bread and wine remain the same in appearance the bread and wine cease to exist and becomes the body and blood of Christ.

Lutherans on the other hand, most anyways, believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist but the bread and wine do not cease to exist when this miracle happens. The bread and wine co-exist with the Body and Blood of Christ.

This is an argument left over not so much from a theological standpoint but a philosophical standpoint. Unfortunately transubstantiation was infallibly written with the council of Trent so there is not much that can be done to rectify it at this point.

In the days of words like Trans- and Con- substantiation there was a philosophical belief in things like accidents and essences of a thing. Accidents are those things bound to something that are not essential to the nature of that something; essences are the essential nature of a thing.

So let us look at bread. To a philosopher in that day bread would have an essence of breadness, because it was bread it would have the accidents of smell, taste, texture, etc attached to it but of which are not necessary for its existence. The essence of the bread is necessary for its existence so if that essence ceases to exists so does the bread.

So in the instance of transubstantiation the essence of the bread is removed and replaced with the Body and Blood but the accidents of the bread remain.

Here is the problem; we now know that there is no such thing as essences of inanimate objects. That which creates something is no more than a collection of particles in a particular arrangement. Rearrange those particles and the thing becomes something different. The classification of things comes from societal norms and not because of any particular innate breadness in the universe to which we must uncover. So one cannot say that the essence of a thing is lost anymore, because there is no such thing as essences…

So now it comes down to a lesser question between Lutherans and Catholics. What is lost during the Mass in the bread and wine?

Is it the particle arrangements? Do the particles in the bread and wine rearrange to form that of Blood and Flesh all the while sunlight reflects off the host as if it were still bread, particles fly from it to our noses as if it were still wine, and particles falsely bond with our tongue receptors to create tastes of bread and wine? Unlikely, and I don’t think the Catholic Church believes that the particles rearrange.

So the particles are the same, those things that can be sensed are the same – so why is it no longer bread?

Nothing has left the bread to cause it to cease to be bread.


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