Mary a sinner?

#21

So by your reckoning ole unworthy one, that a person can live their entire life without sinning?

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#22

The underlying greek grammar tells us that all have Actively sinned. Enoch and Jesus appear to be the only execptions.

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#23

If Mary “understood what God had planned” then how do you explain her lack of understanding at the temple when Jesus was 12? Conncerning God’s plan, I think Mary was likely clueless like the apostles until after the resurrection, when Jesus opened the scriptures to them all.

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#24

So lets see if this makes sense…

Lets say you are really trying to be a good Christian and you have no sins on your soul. Lets see what happens when I try to apply your interpretation to it:

What you are saying is, if I have no need for forgiveness, then there is no love.

If you continue along that logic, Jesus would be saying, “But he who has been forgiven none, loves none”. That doesn’t work since there are people who have no need for forgiveness if they are not sinning. You are only looking at it from the negative point of view. With that logic, I might as well continue sinning as much as I can since:

Romans 5:20

The law entered in so that transgression might increase but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more,

Why don’t you keep sinning when it says that grace will OVERFLOW if you continue to do so? I see this parallel here that is the other extreme of what the verse in Luke is speaking of.

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#25

Based on Enoch it is possible for a person not to sin at all. But, that person would not be calling Jesus their savior neither.

Remember Enoch was much closer to Adam and Eve, so the influnce of a sin enviroment vs living in complete fellowship with God the Father would be more salient to him than it would be for us today.

So, yes in theory it is possible to have never sinned in the first place.

Read Genesis 3, Adam’s disobedence effected the enviroment. There is no indication that there is a “sin gene” .

Jeremiah 31:27-34 (King James Version)

29**In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.

30But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. **

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jer 31 is applied to the new covenant in Hebrews 8.

Ezekiel 18

1The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

2What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge?

3As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

4**Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. **

5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

6And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour’s wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

7And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

8He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

9Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

In short, our sin nature is aquired through the practice of disobedence.

If you look at the nature of the sin nature it is disobedence to God’s laws.

Galatians 5:19-21 (King James Version)

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

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#26

ON THE SURFACE YES, SHE APPEARS TO BE CLUELESS.


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#27

1 Peter 2:24 (King James Version)

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Colossians 2:20 (King James Version)

Wherefore **if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments **of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Romans 8:13 (King James Version)

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 12

1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that **ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. **

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 7:9 (King James Version)

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 6:2 (King James Version)

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

2 Chronicles 25:4 (King James Version)

But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

2 Kings 14:6

But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, **The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin. **

Deuteronomy 24:16

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

1 Peter 2:11 (King James Version)

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

If you have not figured it out scripture has a righteous vs wicked thing going on through out it.

Genesis 18:23
And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans 8:22-27 (King James Version)

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 5:12-21 (King James Version)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

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#28

Genesis 3:14-21 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

If you read carefully, you will see that mankind is born into an enviroment of sinful behavior. That God cursed creation because of Adam’s disobedience. Those who choose to follow God’s rules in the OT were called righteous. Enoch for example was taken upto heaven by God because he walked with God and was pleasing to him. It is by faith in God ( Hebrews 11 ) that they walked with him. There is simply put, no SIN gene. Sin is passed on via the enviroment of sin, not by gentics.

The “for all have sinned” in Romans 5:12 is an “aorist active” which means we have actively sinned. Our sin nature is birthed when we disobey God’s law or disobey our parents with full knowledge that we are in fact being disobedent.

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#29

I once nearly got hit by a bus. My girlfriend at the time reached out, grabbed my shirt and saved my life. I can assure you that i am MUCH more grateful to be saved BEFORE my life was lost than after. Therefore either Jesus is disconnected from reality, or your interpretation is incorrect. I’m voting for the latter.

Second, humanity was damned by the stain of original sin. This is a state of human nature and not one of action. as such, mary was saved by her NATURE being made pure, unlike us who must be cleansed of both nature AND actions.

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#30

Huh? How do you figure? Even if a person went their entire life without committing a personal sin, they still would need to be saved from original sin which they contracted at conception.

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#31

Nobody says that “a baby sins.” That is not what Original Sin means. Original sin means that the baby is separated from God by its fallen human nature.

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#32

Clueless maybe. But she (Mary) was a mother and she reacted like anyone of our mothers would.

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#33

I know Jesus was fully God and fully human. But there is no reference to mary being sinless in scriputre…thus if I did fully believe in sola scriptura I would still be justified. The fact she is sinless is a biblical assumption.

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#34

The fact she is sinless is a biblical assumption.

Only by your limited knowledge based solely on the English Translation.

Here is a treatise on Luke 1:28

The Greek word kecharitomene has fascinated people since ancient times, and for a number of reasons. What does it mean? How do we best translate it into other languages? What might it imply, beyond simple meaning, about Mary? This article will focus primarily on the first two questions: considering the meaning of the Greek word and its translation into English. The third question could not be fully answered without considering the larger scriptural context of the words of Gabriel, traditional Christian understanding and mariology, etc.

So what does kecharitomene mean?

direct address

When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are “Chaire, kecharitomene!” Caire, kecaritomene!]. Chaire (which means both “rejoice” and “hail”) is the salutation, like the word “hello” in “hello, Cathy!” The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name “Cathy” is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name “Mary,” but the word kecharitomene.

Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as “highly favored daughter.” Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is “daughter,” a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). “Daughter” is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn’t really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address “you” or “one” and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.

caritow

The root word is charitoo caritow], which means “to grace, favor.” On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of “grace” or “favor” in them.

ke

The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel’s greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.
This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be “you are certified to teach.” “Are” indicates a present state, “certified” shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.

mene
The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. “Passive” means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is “grace” and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that “someone graced Mary,” rather than “Mary graced.” Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied “someone” is God. “Participle,” in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but “to grace” is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.

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closed #35
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