Mary - Amateur Catholic Apologist conversation needs help

#24

re: prayer to Mary in scripture,

  1. Jesus is the King of Kings
  2. by virtue of Jesus kingship Mary is the queen mother, who in the days of Jesus would be the second most powerfull person in the kingdom. Why wouldn’t someone pray to Mary for her intercession with the King her sn???
    If your future father-in-law needs proof from scripture, see 1Kings 1:16 where Bathsheba enters King Davids throne room and bows to him… then this same person, no longer the queen, but now the queen mother enters King solomons throne room where her son the King bows and pays homage to his mother, and a throne is brought out for her to sit at the Kings right hand(1Kings 2:19).
  3. Why wouldn’t Jesus treat Mary the same way if she were interceeding for someone praying for her help???
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#25

Very good one! That passage spoke volumes to me, as a non-Catholic.

Also, even one of the 10 commandments, to honour they Father and Mother, was one that caused me pause in debate. Why would the Saviour, who came to fulfil all scriptures and the law, NOT obey the commandments?

Another powerful passage, is the prophecy in Genesis about the emnity between the serpent and the woman, his seed and her seed. Most evangelicals MISS the emnity between satan and THE WOMAN. Point out that this was not just ANY WOMAN…but THE WOMAN…and not just any woman’s seed, but THE SEED who would crush the head of the serpent. That SEED is none other than Jesus Christ–making THE WOMAN of scripture prophecy, none other than Mary. When anti-Catholics say that Jesus called his Mother, WOMAN (to supposedly prove that she was just a woman like any other believer) it helps to point out that Jesus calling her WOMAN was a fulfilment of the Gen. prophecy. Woman was not a title of disrespect, it was a very powerful Word which identified who Mary was, from Genesis to Rev. When he said “WOMAN, behold they son” in reference to John at the foot of the cross – woman was significant. And the WOMAN in Rev. who give birth as the dragon, the devil tries to devour her seed…is also significant.

Another powerful thing when discussing Mary to anti-Catholics, is the passage which says “all generations will call her blessed.” Who does that? At Christmas, many Protestant and non-denom churches SAY that Mary was blessed. But, WHO CALLS HER BLESSED? To call someone blessed, you must SAY TO THAT PERSON, “BLESSED ART THOU.” You don’t simply say they are blessed ABOUT THEM…but TO THEM. This is scripture…and it is a PROPHECY that ALL GENERATIONS would call Mary BLESSED. When I realized that I had never been to a church who told Mary she was blessed. I wondered, “Who fulfills that passage for GENERATIONS? Who has called Mary BLESSED?”

I also cannot go without mentioning that Elizabeth called Mary “the Mother of my Lord.”

There’s plenty in the Protestant Bible to defend the beliefs about Mary. Just as there is plenty in the Bible about the Lord’s Supper, and that it is not only symbolic.

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#26

Someone recommended this book:
Mateo, Father, Refuting the Attack on Mary; A Defense of Marian Doctrines, San Diego, CA: Catholic Answers Inc., 1993

I’ve read it twice and parts of it more than that. It’s not a v big book, either. Very easy to understand, and it covers all of the issues many non-Catholics have about Mary. I especially like the term “full of grace” clarification. It comes from the Greek root “charitoo” which (as I recall) is used only one other time in the Bible. Just get the book and study the answers. You’ll sound like a real scholar when you can say, “Now if we go back to the original Greek…”

And just to be clear and factual, the angel Gabriel did not say “Hail, Mary, full of grace”, he called her, as by name, Full-of-Grace. I’ll betcha your FIL’s Bible says “Hail, most highly favored daughter” or “highly favored one”. But Fr. Pacwa, who IS a real scholar, says Full-of-grace is THE best translation.

Also, there are neat little tracts you can get from grottopress.com which are doctrinally correct and for a few $$. I think they have CD’s too.

With all confidence, you can tell your FIL that the Catholic Church is Biblical and everything is grounded in scripture; we understand it through the lens of the Magisterium and Tradition.

Perhaps Scott Hahn’s book Home Sweet Rome would be good, too. And you should get the small bk by Patrick Madrid, Where Is That in the Bible?

There’s so many good resources out there now; just get some, dive in, and have fun getting to know your Faith!

Amateur apologist,
Mimi

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#27

Your friend’s father’s church doesn’t do anything not found in the Bible? Ask him what day is the Sabbath. If he worships on Sunday ask him why? The Bible never says anything about the day of worship being moved. They seem to be Bible Christians that “imitate” the Apostles. Just remind them that the Apostles didn’t have the Bible. Remind them who put the Bible together. Remember the best defense is a good offense. Just point out everything “un-biblical” about his church. His church can’t stand against God’s church.

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#28

:bible1: For an in-depth explanation of this, see Michuda’s, Why Catholic Bibles are BiggerU] from grottopress.org/

Lots of good stuff at handsonapologetics.com/deuterocanon.htm
Where you can get an explanation of what those books are that your FIL’s (referring to the OP) Bible is probably missing (Maccabees, Tobit,…). Martin Luther set those apart in their own section at the end of an edition and gave them the somewhat derogatory title Apochrypha. Catholics call them the Deuterocanonicals.

Get ‘free’ CD’s at catholicity.com/ (you make a donation, so technically, they’re free).

Sigh; I wish – I mean, I PRAY :gopray: – that I can use some of these materials to witness to my neighbor someday. I think God has been preparing me for that for a few yrs now.

We must always remember to resist being goaded into an argument; always try to witness for the truth in charity with clarity (as is said on Relevant Radio).:tiphat:

Gotta go catch some z-z-z’s
Mimi
:yawn: :wave:

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#29

Hey!
I go to a Baptist church, and I know that posting this may not be immediately helpful… but in the long run I’m certain it would be, as your girlfriend and her father are sure to have the same or similar questions.

I want to know exactly what Mary can do with our prayers that Jesus can’t. I mean seriously - why would you want to pray to Mary and not God? What makes you think that she can hear you at all?

1 Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

I heard a Catholic say that Mary is the signpost to God. So can comeone please tell me, why pray to the signpost when you can pray to God himself?

I mean no disrespect, I’m only trying to understand. Thanks :slight_smile:

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SPLIT: Here is what we Christians have a problem with, concerning Catholic doctrines:
#30

It is so interesting how uninformed Protestants believe that the Rosary is non scriptual; You are right on the money.To pray the Rosary is to pray the gospels of Jesus. The Hail Mary is not only scriptual but it is also about Jesus and how Mary leads us to her son.

Alan J. Eddy aeddy101@comcast.net

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#31
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#32

I’m a non-denom as well. Well former Catholic I should say. I’ve been baptized by full water immersion and have never experienced the gift of tongues. But let’s take a look at what the firey tongues are because I do not like that protestants throw this in the faces of Catholics or any Christian group that doesn’t understand it.

The gift of firey tongues is not a special language that God speaks. The gift was giving the ability to the Apostles to speak in the native tongues of those at Pentecost because it was very typical for Jews to travel from all parts of the world to Jerusalem for Pentecost. They spoke Greek, Italian, some form of Asian language, probably German and who knows what else. The Apostles were given the ability to speak in their language so they could understand what Peter was saying when he gave his wonderful sermon. Read the beginnning sections of Acts to see this explained. I simply do not know what this speaking in tongues is supposed to be. There’s alot of arguing about it amongst the religious groups but if you hear it it sounds like mumbo jumbo to me and it certainly does not make any sense. Tell your friend to show you in the Bible where it states that the gift of firey tongues is it’s own language. It isn’t. It’s the ability to speak in foreign languages.

As far as praying to Mary. I never agreed with this as well because it elevates her to the status of deity. She would have to be omniscient and omnipresent (spelling??):eek: in order to hear us. The same goes for praying to saints. Remember in the Bible Paul tells us that we all are saints. Anyone who follows Jesus is considered a Saint and does not need to be pronounced as such by any church. That is not scriptural at all. In revelations when they refer to the prayers of the saints, they are actually referring to our prayers, not just the prayers of St. Peter and Paul etc., but every follower of Christ. Is Mary a diety now as well as all of our fallen Christian brothers and sisters?? Maybe but we don’t know for sure. We do know how Jesus taught us to pray in the Bible which is the Our Father and he also told us to pray directly to God in his name. Remember what Jesus tells us in John:

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and
the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
If that’s true then how can we pray to anyone other the God in Jesus name.

Regarding the Rosary, take a look at church history and you will find that the Rosary is nothing but prayer beads. Prayer beads are very paganistic and it’s how they used to pray to their gods. The pagans thought that if they kept repeating their prayers over and over and over again that the gods would listen to them. Think of how the rosary is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by praying the Our Father and Hail Mary over and over and over again will force God to listen to you more? NO. It’s not the quantity of your prayer it’s the quality. The rosary is definitely not scriptural and if anything it’s very paganistic.

Peace and God Bless.

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#33

Welcome to the Forum. Now that you are here, please try to understand what we actually believed and not presumed what we professed in the Catholic Church.

The gift of firey tongues is not a special language that God speaks. The gift was giving the ability to the Apostles to speak in the native tongues of those at Pentecost because it was very typical for Jews to travel from all parts of the world to Jerusalem for Pentecost. They spoke Greek, Italian, some form of Asian language, probably German and who knows what else. The Apostles were given the ability to speak in their language so they could understand what Peter was saying when he gave his wonderful sermon. Read the beginnning sections of Acts to see this explained. I simply do not know what this speaking in tongues is supposed to be. There’s alot of arguing about it amongst the religious groups but if you hear it it sounds like mumbo jumbo to me and it certainly does not make any sense. Tell your friend to show you in the Bible where it states that the gift of firey tongues is it’s own language. It isn’t. It’s the ability to speak in foreign languages.

Speaking off tongues is a different subject and should be discuss in a New Thread.
.

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#34

As far as praying to Mary. I never agreed with this as well because it elevates her to the status of deity. She would have to be omniscient and omnipresent (spelling??):eek: in order to hear us. The same goes for praying to saints. Remember in the Bible Paul tells us that we all are saints. Anyone who follows Jesus is considered a Saint and does not need to be pronounced as such by any church. That is not scriptural at all.

Mary and all the other saints have a beatific vision granted to them by God himself. By themselves they cannot do anything. The beatific vision saints can be granted to see things that God allows to have. Saints are not omnipresent in the same sense as God. They are outside time and space. They can hear his because we are surrounded Cloud of Witnesses (See Hebrews 12:1)

In revelations when they refer to the prayers of the saints, they are actually referring to our prayers, not just the prayers of St. Peter and Paul etc., but every follower of Christ. Is Mary a diety now as well as all of our fallen Christian brothers and sisters??

They are offering prayers of the saints that include not just the living but the dead in Christ. Is not God the God of the Living, not the dead? See Rev. 1:4, Rev. 5:8, Rev. 6:9-11, & Rev. 8:3-4.

The Catholic Church does not proclaim that Mary is a deity. She is a created being by God. A human like you and me, except sin. Mary’s sinlessness has nothing to this thread and has been covered in others so I will not go there.

Maybe but we don’t know for sure. We do know how Jesus taught us to pray in the Bible which is the Our Father and he also told us to pray directly to God in his name. Remember what Jesus tells us in John:

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and
the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
If that’s true then how can we pray to anyone other the God in Jesus name.

Jesus is the Way, And the Truth and the Life. Paul himself said that we are must be made intercessors.

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:1-5

Regarding the Rosary, take a look at church history and you will find that the Rosary is nothing but prayer beads. Prayer beads are very paganistic and it’s how they used to pray to their gods. The pagans thought that if they kept repeating their prayers over and over and over again that the gods would listen to them. Think of how the rosary is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by praying the Our Father and Hail Mary over and over and over again will force God to listen to you more? NO. It’s not the quantity of your prayer it’s the quality. The rosary is definitely not scriptural and if anything it’s very paganistic.

Peace and God Bless.

Actually it isn’t. The early form of prayer beads recite the 150 Psalms by monks. The Eastern Rite Catholics as well as the Orthodox Christians have a bead that recite “Jesus, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

The Rosary itself is a Gospel Prayer. Hail Mary, full of grace comes from Luke 1:28, Blessed are you amongst women comes from St. Elizabeth’s mouth when she greeted Mary. Mother of God, derives from Mother of My Lord also from Elizabeth’s own mouth.

The rosary isn’t paganistic. If you know history, you would know this. However, it is apparent, you don’t know

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#35

Remember in the Bible Paul tells us that we all are saints. Anyone who follows Jesus is considered a Saint and does not need to be pronounced as such by any church. That is not scriptural at all. In revelations when they refer to the prayers of the saints, they are actually referring to our prayers, not just the prayers of St. Peter and Paul etc., but every follower of Christ. Is Mary a diety now as well as all of our fallen Christian brothers and sisters?? Maybe but we don’t know for sure.Let me recommend a good Bible study to you. Just download the free MP3, The Communion of Saints and you can find the study notes to it here. Nowhere does Catholic teaching elevate the Blessed Virgin or the saints to deity and your poor reasoning that it would require them to be so fails on many fronts.

  1. It is miraculous, and by that I mean that it is accomplished by the will and power of God, not the power of the individual. All Christian miracles are by God’s power and the Catholic Church has always taught that.

  2. The Faithful Departed are more alive than they ever were in this life. (Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38)

  3. As such they are not bound by time and space like we are.

  4. The Word of God teaches us that they are not in a body like ours “but shall be as the angels of God in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)

We do know how Jesus taught us to pray in the Bible which is the Our Father and he also told us to pray directly to God in his name. Remember what Jesus tells us in John:

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and
the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
If that’s true then how can we pray to anyone other the God in Jesus name.

Did you miss the fact that Catholics open and close every prayer with “In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.” So we certainly do pray in in Jesus name, even when we ask for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin or another saint. If you are a “former Catholic”, then how did you come away without knowing these things? Or were you like me and just didn’t pay attention? Whose fault would that be?

Saints who, BTW, are simply recognized by the canonization process of the Catholic Church for their holy lives.
(Cont’d)

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#36

Regarding the Rosary, take a look at church history and you will find that the Rosary is nothing but prayer beads.

Well duh…

Prayer beads are very paganistic and it’s how they used to pray to their gods. The pagans thought that if they kept repeating their prayers over and over and over again that the gods would listen to them.

This is just anti-Catholic propaganda, and you have been gravely deceived by whoever taught you this bunkum. Just because other religions have “rosaries” by no means indicts the prayerful Catholic meditation upon the life of Christ.

As for repetition, would you also attempt to indict the four Living Creatures and the elders in Revelation 4:8* And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!” 9* And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing, 11 “Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things, and by thy will they existed and were created.”

Think of how the rosary is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by praying the Our Father and Hail Mary over and over and over again will force God to listen to you more? NO. It’s not the quantity of your prayer it’s the quality. The rosary is definitely not scriptural and if anything it’s very paganistic.

This is also ridiculous in that Our Lord Himself prayed the same prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane. Was He guilty of pagan ritual? Of course not!

It’s really too bad that you never learned the meditations on the life of Christ in the Rosary and that you have been deceived by anti-Catholic propaganda like that.

The Rosary is actually very scriptural, most of it coming from scripture anyway and the mediations on the mysteries are meditations upon events in the life of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I suppose you have never seen a scriptural Rosary… I suggest that you look at that one and check out the links to the mysteries that I mentioned.

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#37

Actually it isn’t. The early form of prayer beads recite the 150 Psalms by monks. The Eastern Rite Catholics as well as the Orthodox Christians have a bead that recite “Jesus, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

The Rosary itself is a Gospel Prayer. Hail Mary, full of grace comes from Luke 1:28, Blessed are you amongst women comes from St. Elizabeth’s mouth when she greeted Mary. Mother of God, derives from Mother of My Lord also from Elizabeth’s own mouth.

The rosary isn’t paganistic. If you know history, you would know this. However, it is apparent, you don’t know
YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE ROSARY. TO PRAY THE ROSARY IS TO PRAY THE GOSPELS OF JESUS. THE MYSTERIES ARE ALL SCRIPTUAL. WHEN WE SAY THE OUR FATHER DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE HE WOULD THINK LESS OF US IF WE PRAYED THIS PRAYER TWICE OR THREE OR TEN TIMES??? YOU ARE ALL WET IN YOUR COMMENTS!!!

Alan

Mary is the mother of God made incarnate, trhe word, Jesus
She draws all to her son.

Alan

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#38

Hey Alan, didn’t you mean to quote the post by inchrist101?

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#39

This is an excellent place to try to open up their (your non-Catholic, Christian friends) eyes.

Many respondents have pointed to scriptural references to respect and devotion for Mary, and those are good points.

Personally, I tend to look at this as a point of common sense:

If I were to visit a friend, I would be respectful to their mother, just because she is their mother.

I hope that Jesus is with me at all times, and as I see Christ as God, the second person of the trinity, of course, I will honor his mother as He honored His mother Himself.

We have the Fourth Commandment of the 10 Commandments that tell us to honor our Father and our Mother. Mary was given to US as our Mother when Christ was on the Cross. One of his last ‘seven words’ was that act. She is our mother, so we should honor her.

There are those that say she is dead. But I believe in John 3:16, where we are promised everlasting life (and if we Believe in God, we will honor Him as Mary did - so I believe she has been rewarded with everlasting life)

The Rosary itself is not a prayer to Mary - the Hail Mary prayer is. But the Rosary is a reflection on the life of Christ. Most of the times we see as milestones in His life, Mary was at His side.

(I have a tendency to back off from defending prayers TO Mary, but there is biblical references telling us to pray unceasingly, to pray to the saints, to have our prayers offered up by the Saints in heaven - we SHOULD pray TO (directly to) Mary)

Many people that are into Sola Scriptura will tell you of the things that are not in the Bible, I ask them: are cars in the Bible? How did you get here? Is television in the Bible? What did you watch last night?

The Rosary is a memory/meditation tool. It allows us to, as we pray to Mary, to reflect upon the life of Christ, and the meaning of each of those 20 (including the Luminous Mysteries) moments in His life.

Imagine a friend of mine was devoted to his mother, and he had to go away for a while. He was a good friend of mine, and I wanted to be a good friend to him. Then, I don’t even call his mother to check on her. I don’t acknowledge her on Mother’s day. I know she needs to get to a doctor, and I do nothing. What kind of friend would I be?

Then, we have Jesus, who died on the cross for MY sins, and I can’t even give His mothers the roses of a rosary?

Ask your ‘friend’, if he’ll treat Jesus that way, how will he treat you?

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#40

Mt 16:18&19

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

1 Cor 11:2

I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

Rom 15:30

I urge you, (brothers,) by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,

2 Th 3:1&2

Finally, brothers, pray for us, so that the word of the Lord may speed forward and be glorified, as it did among you, and that we may be delivered from perverse and wicked people,
for not all have faith

2 Th 1:11

To this end, we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and powerfully bring to fulfillment every good purpose and every effort of faith,

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#41

This is an absurd idea! How can asking someone else to pray for you elevate the intercessor to the divine?! :confused:

If I asked you to pray for me, would you then suddenly become divine? Nonsense.

Not so. Attributing divine qualities to anyone but God is a violation of the first commandment. All of us are subject to the will of God, and if any communication happens, it only does so by the will of God. Phillip, after baptizing the eunuch, was caught up by the Spirit, and found himself about 200 miles away. Are you going to tell me that makes him omnipresent? Nonesense. God can do whatever He wants with His servants.

Yes, positionallly at least. However, some of us are a little further along in the course of actual sanctification than others. :thumbsup: I have a question for you. Who are the people in the “great cloud of witnesses” in Heb. 12:1?

The church has a rigorous procedure by which it examines the life of person who are considered to have fulfilled God’s plan for their lives. Those who meet all the criteria are held forth as examples for us to follow, just as Paul held forth himself as an example, and those persons in the “great cloud”. By emulating them, we can become what God wants us to be. Do you really not have anyone in your life whose faith walk you admire?

Remember that there is more to the Word of God than what is written in scripture. Also, Catholics agree about asking prayers of the saints. We just think it only gets better when a saint passes beyond the veil of flesh.

Nonsense! Of course we know for sure! Mary and the saints (they are not fallen but have been perfected in faith, and have overcome the world), are CREATURES and can never become God. They have become partakers in the divine nature, by virtue of Jesus death on the cross.

Catholics only pray in the name of Jesus.

Maybe but we don’t know for sure.Regarding the Rosary, take a look at church history and you will find that the Rosary is nothing but prayer beads. Prayer beads are very paganistic and it’s how they used to pray to their gods. The pagans thought that if they kept repeating their prayers over and over and over again that the gods would listen to them. Think of how the rosary is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by praying the Our Father and Hail Mary over and over and over again will force God to listen to you more? NO. It’s not the quantity of your prayer it’s the quality. The rosary is definitely not scriptural and if anything it’s very paganistic.

Peace and God Bless.

Seems like a little history of the Rosary might help you more than us!

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#42

One thing she can do with them that Christ can’t is she can give them to Christ!

Seriously, she doesn’t do anything more with them. And she does not in any way prevent any one from praying directly to God.

Imagine you want to go out for the evening. You want to ask your father, but your mother is a bit better at buttering him up. You ask your mother ‘would you talk to Dad for me, please?’ She does. Then, she says to you, ‘go and talk to your father’.

You still have to ask your father’s permission, and you did speak to your mother about it, but the permission was STILL granted by your father. You still have a father. You still speak to your father. Your request was still granted by your father.

Do you think, in this scenario, that talking to your mother removed your father from the equation?

1 Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

True. Very true.

I heard a Catholic say that Mary is the signpost to God. So can comeone please tell me, why pray to the signpost when you can pray to God himself?

Well, for starters, as a person that tries analogies all the time, I know that some analogies are not as good as others. Sometimes, they make sense to one audience, but no sense at all to others.

Sounds like you (and I) are in the audience for whom ‘signpost’ is not a good analogy!

Mary is the Mother of God. Period. We can talk to Mary, and we still talk to God.

Scripturally: the story of the wedding in Cana is a great example of us being told to pray to Mary (WHAT OTHER PURPOSE IS THERE FOR THIS STORY TO BE IN THE BIBLE?). In the situation to Jesus performing His first public miracle, Jesus was aware that there was a need (He is omniscient), but the Wine Steward spoke to His MOTHER. She, in turn, told Jesus of the need.

Notice what she did next: she did not tell Him, ‘Oh, but you HAVE to give them the wine’. No. She didn’t say ‘Make it good wine’ even. No. As a matter of fact, what is written in scripture, she didn’t say anything else to Jesus.

But, before Jesus performed this miracle, she spoke the last words attributed to her in scripture: DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU TO DO.

Hmmm…

So, we can pray TO Mary (as the Wine Steward of Cana did), but the miracle is still done by Jesus (as was done in Cana)… and we STILL gotta follow His direction?

(I feel a tangent coming on)

Why did the Wine Steward seek out Mary to ask about the wine? There were lots of other people there. I’m sure some wealthier. Some who may have had wine. We don’t know the relation of the bride OR the groom to Jesus, or Mary. Of all the people that Wine Steward COULD have asked for some more wine, he went to Mary, the Mother of our Lord.

She in turn didn’t even ASK Him about the wine. She didn’t ask Him to produce more wine. She didn’t ask Him to quiet the crowd, or to put salt on the food, or anything. She only let Him know of the request. The Wine Steward asked HER, and she put that request, made of her, into the hands of her Son.

And that, my good friend, was how the first recorded Miracle of our Lord came to be.

I’m getting goosey just thinking about it, but does this help you to see WHY you should to to Mary? Or, rather, why you COULD go to Mary?

I think that Signpost was a poor choice (because of how it was taken… I’m sure for some, it’s a perfect illustration)

I think that Mary, esp in the case of the Wedding at Cana, was not being a Sign post, but she was acting as the Queen Mother.

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#43

But honestly, are we all following Christ? or are we just aware that Christ died for our sins, is part of the Trinity, and loves us (despite what we do)?

That is not scriptural at all. In revelations when they refer to the prayers of the saints, they are actually referring to our prayers, not just the prayers of St. Peter and Paul etc., but every follower of Christ. Is Mary a diety now as well as all of our fallen Christian brothers and sisters?? Maybe but we don’t know for sure.

You are incorrect. It is scriptural. I’m sure you are aware (even if you don’t realize it) because you pointed to the book of Revelations. Please read the entire thing!

Regarding the Rosary, take a look at church history and you will find that the Rosary is nothing but prayer beads. Prayer beads are very paganistic and it’s how they used to pray to their gods. The pagans thought that if they kept repeating their prayers over and over and over again that the gods would listen to them. Think of how the rosary is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by praying the Our Father and Hail Mary over and over and over again will force God to listen to you more? NO. It’s not the quantity of your prayer it’s the quality. The rosary is definitely not scriptural and if anything it’s very paganistic.

Yes, and no. You have some aspects correct. But you are wrong on many points.

The Rosary is not THE BEADS, it is the collection of prayers. Yes, a Rosary is beads, but THE Rosary is the prayers. (I seldom use the beads when I do my Rosary. I have ten fingers)

Many things in the world exist, and have, at some time, had some connection with a Pagan Act, but that doesn’t mean that our action is a descendant of that action. Many times, the Pagan action is a corruption of some blessed action. I do not know (or care, in this case) which came first. When the Rosary is offered, it is not offered for any Pagan, or nearly Pagan reason. It is for a divine reason. It is in memory of the life of Jesus Christ.

I realize that you have some objections to Catholicism, but please, make sure that what you are objecting to is actually what is going on, and please don’t repeat untruths about the Church of Jesus just because you may not understand the actual truth.

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