Mary and Romans 3:23


#1

How do we explain this below verse in regards to Marian docterine And that she didn't sin

Thanks

Romans 3:23
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
23*For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.


#2

By looking at the context, that’s how! :slight_smile:

Paul is talking about how justification works – whether it comes from the law (and therefore, is accessible only to Jews) or from outside the law (and therefore, is accessible to both Jews and ‘Greeks’ (i.e., gentiles)). His conclusion? Both Jews and Greeks have sinned and require justification through God’s grace!

So, the intent of the ‘all’ here is to include both groups: Jews and Gentiles. But, some would like to damage the Church’s doctrine about Mary and use this verse as a proof-text against the teachings about her sinlessness. To these I would ask: does a person who dies as an infant ‘sin’? Does a baby who is aborted in her mother’s womb ‘sin’? Did Jesus, who also was a Jew, ‘sin’? If the answer to any of these is ‘no’, then we recognize that ‘all’ doesn’t mean “all human beings”, but rather, means, “all (groups) – Jewish and Greek”. :wink:


#3

St Paul is actually quoting from Psalm 13 DRB

Psalm 13

13:1 Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God. They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one. 13:2 The Lord hath looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there be any that understand and seek God. 13:3 They are all gone aside, they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good: no not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they acted deceitfully: the poison of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and unhappiness in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes. 13:4 Shall not all they know that work iniquity, who devour my people as they eat bread? 13:5 They have not called upon the Lord: there have they trembled for fear, where there was no fear. 13:6 For the Lord is in the just generation: you have confounded the counsel of the poor man; but the Lord is his hope. 13:7 Who shall give out of Sion the salvation of Israel? when the Lord shall have turned away the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

The Psalm also says there is no-one who seeks after God, does that mean that no-one on earth seeks God, or that all have sinned? of course not.


#4

[quote="Adamski, post:1, topic:325895"]
How do we explain this below verse in regards to Marian docterine And that she didn't sin

Thanks

Romans 3:23
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
23*For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.

[/quote]

Maybe Gabriel was lying when he sais "Hail, full of grace!" NOT! :)


#5

Well said!


#6

=Adamski;10726797]How do we explain this below verse in regards to Marian docterine And that she didn’t sin

Thanks

Romans 3:23
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
23*For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.

Placed back into context this falli in the middle of a teaching that is meant to include BOTH “all”’ Jews AND Gentiles.

It Does NOT; and cannot include MARY under the One INFALLIBLE Rule for RIGHT understanding of the Bible; which is:

[caps for emphasis not shouting:)]
NEVER - EVER; CAN; MAY OR DOES
ONE VERSE; ONE PASSAGE OR ONE TEACHING
VOID; INVALIDATE OR OVERRIDE
ANOTHER VERSE; PASSAGE OR TEACHING

Such an event even as a possibility {NOT!} would render the bible as useless for teaching or learning ones Faith:thumbsup:

Luke 1:26-35 from thr same DR Bible

"And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’ s name was Mary. ** And the angel being come in, said unto her:** Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. "FULL OF GRACE MENS NO ROOM FOR ANY SIN: PERIOD!] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end. And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

How can we know that Mary was and Is “Perfect”:shrug:

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt.19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” John.17:23 “I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.” :** Rom.12: 2 **“
Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect”

SIMPLR PUT:

BECAUSE GOD HAS TO BE PERFECT TO "BE GOD"
GOD’S MOTHER TOO; HAD TO BE PERFECTED [THROUGH THE MERITS OF HER SON] IN ORDER TO BECOME THE MOTHER OF GOD; FOR WHOM TIME DOES NOT EXIST.
Amen:thumbsup:


#7

This is what Protestants read in luke 1:28

Luke 1:28
New International Version (NIV)
28*The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

King James Version (KJV)
28*And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

The language is a little edited


#8

According to the Council of Trent (1545–63) the Blessed Virgin was preserved from sin by a special privilege. The teaching may be derived from Luke 1:28 which presents Mary as full of grace. Dr. Ludvig Ott says that St. Thomas Aquinas does this in the Summa Theologica as he teaches the Blessed Virgin received consummate grace through the conception of Christ.

The Council of Trent (D 833) :

Can. 23. If anyone shall say that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he who falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the contrary, that throughout his whole life he can avoid all sins even venial sins, except by a special privilege of God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin: let him be anathema.

Summa Theologica (III:27:5):

For at first in her sanctification she was delivered from original sin: afterwards, in the conception of the Son of God, she was entirely cleansed from the fomes: lastly, in her glorification she was also delivered from all affliction whatever. It appears (2) from the point of view of ordering to good. For at first in her sanctification she received grace inclining her to good: in the conception of the Son of God she received consummate grace confirming her in good; and in her glorification her grace was further consummated so as to perfect her in the enjoyment of all good.


#9

One Protestant media minister that I listened to in my past life used to say, " 'All' mean 'all;' that's all 'all' means."

However, there are plenty of instances in the Bible where "all" can't possibly mean "all." This is one of them.


#10

"Its raining cats and dogs";) A bit of hyperbole to express the fact that it is raining really hard. Paul too, could be using a bit of hyperbole to drive home his point.:rolleyes:


#11

=Adamski;10729266]This is what Protestants read in luke 1:28

Luke 1:28
New International Version (NIV)
28*The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

King James Version (KJV)
28*And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

The language is a little edited

WOW:eek:

Satan duplicious and conviencing:shrug:


#12

Looks like the Luke would contradict that:

Luke 1:

5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly


#13

Jesus is a man. He did not sin. He is a man not included in this verse. Why do you assume that Mary is included? :smiley:


#14

=Zekariya;10735689]Jesus is a man. He did not sin. He is a man not included in this verse. Why do you assume that Mary is included? :smiley:

HERE’S WHY

Because God is perfect [AND MUST remain perfect in order to be God]

Mary absoutely had to be Perfected [through the merits of Jesus]

AND the freely choose to remain that way.:smiley:

Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one shall be perfect, if he be as his master.

God Bless you,


#15

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