Mary and the Saints?


#1

Interested in some of your responses to this. I am unsure what I believe in regards to this. Just looking for some insight. Thanks in advance.

**
Question: “Is prayer to saints / Mary Biblical?”**

Answer: The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholic pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and saints as “intercessors” before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more “direct access” to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can “…approach the throne of grace with confidence…”

1 Timothy 2:5 declares, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, “Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them” (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?

Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a “saint” is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God’s throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).


#2

“The Prayers of a rightoeus man availeths us much”

No where in the bible does it tells us of the Trinity.

Peace!


#3

May I ask the source, please?
Jon


#4

Yes! Forgive me, I forgot to include the link. Though please don’t attack the source as a response. I do not support the source, rather I am just looking to see the points brought up addressed.

gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html


#5

We’re not talking about the Trinity.


#6

But we are talking about things not found in the bible.


#7

I’m Lutheran, so while I believe the Church Triumphant prays for us in a general sense, I don’t believe they respond to indiviual prayers. And yes, I undestand the difference between requests for intercession and prayer to God. I don’t think it is idolatry.
That said, when I had prostate cancer almost three years ago, I was greatly comforted by the story of St. Perigrine.

Jon


#8

One can argue that it is addressed in the bible. The bible does say not to pray to the dead though, so how is praying to a saint any different? Saints are dead.
.
Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13).

The trinity has nothing to do with this issue. I am trying to get both sides to this issue, so that I can truly understand it and come to an informed decision on this issue. I grew up a Catholic and have been my whole life, but I never really addressed this issue. I apologize if this question is offensive to you, but for me it is an important question that I am seeking the answer to.


#9

THe Saints in heaven are dead? hmmm, news to me. I believe the church teaches us that they are more alive than ever.

I’m not talking about the Trinity, I gave an example of something a CHristian believes in but is not explicitly in the bible. Why do you believe in the trinity and not the communion of saints?

Peace!

P.S. I’m not upset or offeneded by anything you have written here please do not think that I am!


#10

Understood Jon! I just want to do the right thing in regards to this issue. I grew up praying to Mary and the Saints as I come from a strict Catholic Family. I want to do right in God’s eyes, so I am really taking a hard look at many of these types of issues so that I can find the truth. Thank You for your response.


#11

If you are looking for some info on MAry & the saints CA home page has lots of info for you. Here is a link to what many of the ECF’s said about this very subject.

catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

Peace!


#12

Cmon man… Dead as in Dead physically, not spiritually. Unless you are saying that the bible says you can only pray to the dead that are in Heaven?

Don’t assume you know what I believe. The Trinity is another issue that I have not yet really researched on my own. I grew up believing in the Trinity because that is what I was taught, however it is on my agenda to research… I went to Catholic School growing up, so I probably should be more well versed, but I am not. The Trinity has always made sense to me though, and I don’t doubt it. However, it is for another discussion.


#13

Thank You. I will look into this site.


#14

As you can imagine, there have been numerous discussion threads on this topic. Here are two such that I think you will find helpful:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=249428

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=182303

Also, you’ll find the search feature at THIS ROCK magazine (linked at the top of the page) will lead you to articles on the topic.


#15

But that’s just the point, don’t you see? :slight_smile: Of course regarding the Blessed Mother, she is alive both physically and spiritually. :slight_smile:


#16

I apologize, I didn’t realize anyone posted the same exact argument I did. Of course I am still hoping someone can address the piece I posted specifically.


#17

In the Old Testament is a story of Tobias and an angel who offered Tobias’ prayers to the Lord.

Tob 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.

In the New Testament, Revelations, there is a verse referencing the prayers of the Saints. Since the saints are in heaven, what would they be praying for?

Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

In Ephesians, St. Paul asks for prayers and supplications.

Eph 6:18 By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit: and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:
Eph 6:19 And for me, that speech may be given me, that I may open my mouth with confidence, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

In Hebrews, who is St. Paul talking about being the a cloud of witnesses over our heads?

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

St. Paul speaks in 1 Timothy about supplications, prayers and intercessions.

1Ti 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men:

Below are a few scriptures addressing the “dead”:

Mar 12:26 And as concerning the dead that they rise again have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

Mar 9:4 (9:3) And there appeared to them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Hope this helps.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,


#18

To my knowledge, I don’t think the specific piece you posted has been seen on CAF before; that said, all the arguments put forth within the piece have been addressed on the forum repeatedly and well. Not faulting you at all, but it’s always the “same old, same old.” :wink:


#19

From a straightforward reading of the Bible would you understand that you are to pray to anyone but God?


#20

Good Question. No Just God.


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