Originally Posted by Doihavtasay
Justaccord and ScottH
The problem you are having here is you are hearing what is being said through Protestant ears. You have been trained to come to this with a preconceived idea of what they are saying and are LOOKING for anything that sounds that as though it will support your veiw rather then trying to move out of that box and HEAR WHAT THEY ARE SAYING. I had a hard time in the beginning, but it gets easier. It’s like learning a new language.
As for what John Paul II said, here is my take with out looking it up-Mary was His mother, she nursed Him, cared for Him , protected Him, realized He was God… how hard it must have been for her to watch them toture and kill Him having known Him so intimately. If I had been His mother, i would NOT have CO-opperated, I would have tried to kill those who took Him. I would have cried buckett snd railed against the world as He hung dying. But she instead, bore HER CROSS of being totally submissive and restrained herself from raising a hand to stop this. If that is not being CO-operative and being ‘cruixified’ spiritutally, I don’t what would be.
We are all asked to take up our crosses… you just don’t get the metaphors and language of the Bible.
They are being very kind and have gone out of their way to explain things, but you basically keel telling them they are lying about what they believe. I would have gotten condecending many posts ago…
If they honestly believed she was equal, won’t they be HAPPY to admit that??? Not admiting it would be disgracing to Mary and if they placed her as high as the Lord, why on earth would they do that???
Good news for me. I dont think I’ve ever heard anti-catholic rhetoric in my church. But I was imprisoned by catholicism for almost 20 years and God saved me in spite of it.
Everyone, including you, has told me that I am ignorant of catholic doctrine and in effect am therefore ill-equipped to discuss the matter. (I regard that as condescension, although I take no personal offense at your post). The problem is, frankly, although you all want to lecture me on my ignorance, you all contradict each other and often the actual doctrine and dogma that I find in places like the catholic catechism.
For example, I got a reply recently (on the other thread) that said this:
"Nowhere in our beliefs is it said that Mary is our redeemer. Anyone who tells you that is either ignorant or outright lying to you… . .The mediation of the Blessed Virgin is nothing more than the same intercession of saints that all Christians share and are enjoined by the Bible itself to do. "
I replied by quoting John Paul II:
"Here’s what your late pope said:
John Paul II, Allocution at the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Guayaquil, given on Jan 31, 1985, reported in L’Osservatore Romano Supplement of Feb. 2, 1985 and in English L’Osservatore Romano, March 11, 1985, p. 7.
“Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son (cf. Gal 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen gentium #58) … as she was in a special way close to the Cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. In fact, Mary’s role as co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.”
I asked (granted, sarcastically)
Is the pope ignorant, or lying?
Here’s the point – who is in a better position to articulate catholic doctrine – you, or the pope?
I’m sure you agree it’s the pope, who says she (Mary) is a CO-REDEEMER with Christ.
And I go to Mexico, and can buy a cross with no Jesus but Mary on it. And I see a picture of a cross outside a catholic church with Jesus on one side and Mary on the other, back to back.
There is a problem with this picture. So no, I am not content to accept the patronizing statements of catholics whose staetments contradict the pope’s and the catholic catechism, where I have done my research.
I am sure that you all believe what you say, but that doesnt make it catholic doctrine.
So help me straighten this out, would you?
(I appreciate your tag line, by the way as the father of 5 and grandfather of 2)