justaccord: Good news for me. I dont think I’ve ever heard anti-catholic rhetoric in my church.
Salmon: Oh really? How about this:
How about the tradition that suddenly invented the Blessed Assumption about 1800 years late? Or the tradition that has declared Mary a redeemer and mediator when Scripture says there is only one – Jesus Christ. Isn’t it blasphemy to claim that a human is Divine?
Do you catholics regard it as strange that Jesus Christ, who condemned elevation of tradition, would found His church so that tradition would trump the Word of God?
oh wait………….those gems were posted by you. Perhaps you wouldn’t recognize anti-Catholic rhetoric if you tripped over it.
But I was imprisoned by catholicism for almost 20 years and God saved me in spite of it.
Salmon: Your lack of understanding of Church teachings makes one wonder what you were doing for 20 years. It certainly wasn’t seeking to understand what and why the Church teaches something. (Hint: the Church teaches that Mary was fully human, a creation like you and me, not “divine” as you wrongly claimed.
Everyone, including you, has told me that I am ignorant of catholic doctrine and in effect am therefore ill-equipped to discuss the matter.
Salmon: Many people have pointed you to sources that clarify Church teachings, but you have resisted, choosing to rely on your misunderstanding of the topics under consideration.
(I regard that as condescension, although I take no personal offense at your post). The problem is, frankly, although you all want to lecture me on my ignorance, you all contradict each other and often the actual doctrine and dogma that I find in places like the catholic catechism.
Salmon: When you have cited the Catechism, you have consistently chosen to claim that the Church teaches in accord with your misunderstandings, rather than researching cited footnotes that clearly show your distorted perceptions to be incorrect.
For example, I got a reply recently (on the other thread) that said this:
"Nowhere in our beliefs is it said that Mary is our redeemer. Anyone who tells you that is either ignorant or outright lying to you… . .The mediation of the Blessed Virgin is nothing more than the same intercession of saints that all Christians share and are enjoined by the Bible itself to do. "
Salmon: It was pointed out to you that the title of Co-Redemptrix has not been declared officially by the Catholic Church.
I replied by quoting John Paul II:
Salmon: Rather than trying to locate a Church teaching on the subject (very clever, as there is no official teaching to support your accusation).
"Here’s what your late pope said:
John Paul II, Allocution at the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Guayaquil, given on Jan 31, 1985, reported in L’Osservatore Romano Supplement of Feb. 2, 1985 and in English L’Osservatore Romano, March 11, 1985, p. 7.
“Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son (cf. Gal 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen gentium #58) … as she was in a special way close to the Cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. In fact, Mary’s role as co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.”
I asked (granted, sarcastically)
Is the pope ignorant, or lying?
Salmon: So, what did Pope John Paul II mean by that expression? Did he mean what you claim, or did he mean something else? (I don’t expect an answer, because to find out what the Pope meant, you would actually have to research the subject to find the truth.)
justaccord: Here’s the point – who is in a better position to articulate catholic doctrine – you, or the pope?
Salmon: That’s a non-sequitor, as the Pope was not articulating doctrine/dogma in the talk you cite. Keep in mind, that Pope John Paul II refused to proclaim the 5th Marian dogma which would have granted Mary the official title “Co-Redemptrix”. Why did he refuse? He felt that it would not be understood by the unstable and ignorant.
justaccord: I’m sure you agree it’s the pope, who says she (Mary) is a CO-REDEEMER with Christ.
Salmon: What did he mean by that assertion? Exactly the opposite of what you claim.
justaccord: And I go to Mexico, and can buy a cross with no Jesus but Mary on it. And I see a picture of a cross outside a catholic church with Jesus on one side and Mary on the other, back to back.
Salmon: Again, that has nothing to do with Church teachings, not that it should be important to you.