Mary, co-redeemer and co-mediator

[quote=Salmon] Keep in mind, that Pope John Paul II refused to proclaim the 5th Marian dogma which would have granted Mary the official title “Co-Redemptrix”. Why did he refuse? He felt that it would not be understood by the unstable and ignorant.

[/quote]

BINGO!!!


%between%

[quote=Mickey]You spend so much time and effort attempting to discredit the unique role of the Mother of God. If a large group of people continually tried to discredit your mother, would you be offended? I pray that Jesus forgives you in your ignorance. :frowning:
[/quote]

No you misunderstand me. The only thing that should be discredited is false teaching. Taking the faith given to us by the grace of God and turning it into a different religion based on works and tradition falls into that category.

There is no dispute that Mary was blessed, especially, by God, and that a sword pierced her heart when He was killed in an abominable way. But it looks like the rest of it after that was a figment of human imaginations, that can only be sustained by twisting the English language into an unrecognizable shape.

Interestingly, there is no mention of special reverence of Mary anywhere in the New Testament or in the early church.
Indeed,

Luke 8:19 Then his mother and shis brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. 20 And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”

quote=Salmon

justaccord: There is a problem with this picture.

Salmon: Yes, there is. An observer claims that only his perception is valid, refusing to recognize any other view is possible is destined to stumble in his pride. If someone wanted to understand the beliefs of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, should he spend time researching those beliefs, or just charge in full-speed ahead recklessly addressing matters with which he has little expertise?

[/quote]

Discussing things with a postmodernist is a difficult process. Words change meaning, subjectively, during the conversation. All truth is subjective. There is no law of non-contradiction. it is always difficult.

Do you put yourself in the category of one who refuses to recognize another (my) view? Would you call yourself proud? (Try rereading your recent posts)

With respect to Jehovah’s witnesses, may I point you to the fact that when (former) Treasury agents were trained in counterfeitting, they spent relatively little time studying the counterfeit and most of their time studying the real thing. That way, when they saw the counterfeit, they knew it.

I have researched. But I don’t need to read footnotes to know how to read English. God says there is One, you say there are two or many (you all totally contradict each other on this one).

sdg

[quote=justaccord]The only thing that should be discredited is false teaching.
[/quote]

Agreed!

[quote=justaccord]Taking the faith given to us by the grace of God and turning it into a different religion based on works and tradition falls into that category.
[/quote]

Yes. The reformation was unfortunate.

[quote=justaccord] But it looks like the rest of it after that was a figment of human imaginations, that can only be sustained by twisting the English language into an unrecognizable shape…
[/quote]

This statement is a figment of your imagination. It’s called relativism.

[quote=justaccord]Interestingly, there is no mention of special reverence of Mary anywhere in the New Testament or in the early church.
[/quote]

And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. Luke 1:42

Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Luke 1:48

[quote=justaccord]No you misunderstand me. The only thing that should be discredited is false teaching. Taking the faith given to us by the grace of God and turning it into a different religion based on works and tradition falls into that category.

[/quote]

Does your church teach anything false? Who would make such a determination. When you speak about the faith given by the grace of God, when Jesus was on Earth, during the subsequent aposotlic era of in the following centuries with the codification of the Bible?

One thing that is important to remember about the Catholic Church, is that we are firmly believe that we do follow the faith laid out by the Saviour, established on the apostle’s, of which Peter was the leader and then presented unblemished in the Holy Bible. We do reject the Bible-alone as being a self-contradictory postition, in that** it** is an un-Biblical position. Therefore we do not restrict ourselves to it in understanding how the first and second centuries understood the role of Mary. We also do not dismiss the Holy Spirit’s work in the Church over the last two millenia.

One reason why such a debate over Mary is difficult between our two respective faiths, is that we can not agree on what to accept as authority. What I can say, is that it is not un-Biblical (contrary to the Bible) and the basis of our understanding of Mary is found in the Bible.

[quote=deb1]Think about it. What if Mary had refused to take on the task of being Christ’s mother? I don’t think that most people realize that she could have turned down God. She is a creature of free will after all. It was partially her choice that brought about the incarnation. So in that regard she deserves the title of coredeemer.

.
[/quote]

And Jesus could not qualify as the Messiah unless He was of the house of David. Does that make David a co-redeemer as well?

The question may sound cute, but I dont mean it that way. i’m still trying to get an answer to teh question how many co-mediators catholics claim there are-- is it every one of us, every time we pray an intercessory prayer? How many co-redeemers are there – every one of us, because we are saved?

[quote=justaccord] Interestingly, there is no mention of special reverence of Mary anywhere in the New Testament or in the early church.
Indeed,

Luke 8:19 Then his mother and shis brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. 20 And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”
[/quote]

Maybe its the blinders, but check out:

ScriptureCatholic

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The “woman’s” (Mary’s) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God’s covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary’s intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus’ ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother’s request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God’s kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

[quote=justaccord]No bitterness, no anger, only gratitude that God saved me through His grace and His grace alone, which is sufficient for both eternal salvation and the certainty of it.
[/quote]

Agreed 100%.

You also wrote:
Praise God, He determines the timing of our salvation and the circumstances under which we are saved, although it is always through His Word (Rom. 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.)
yup. 47 years a baptist/an anabaptist/ a preacher
and Bamm! I’m a Catholic Christian now. All by my obedient faith to God’s Gracious call through His Holy Scriptures.
try it- listen to the gospels as you ask yourself… why do they think they’re right? Catholics believe that the writers of the NT meant what they said when they described our Christian life as “one with Christ, dying with Christ, raised with Him, newness of life, Christ in you”. you pray and consider that the ground level truth is truly "Christ in you, the hope of glory"
Col.1:26-29
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. 29To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.

I just feel badly for others who dont know what they’re missing.
Yeah…:slight_smile: We Catholics are praying for you, that you will know His Fullness. You truly don’t know what you’re missing.

[quote=pnewton]Does your church teach anything false? Who would make such a determination. When you speak about the faith given by the grace of God, when Jesus was on Earth, during the subsequent aposotlic era of in the following centuries with the codification of the Bible?

One thing that is important to remember about the Catholic Church, is that we are firmly believe that we do follow the faith laid out by the Saviour, established on the apostle’s, of which Peter was the leader and then presented unblemished in the Holy Bible. We do reject the Bible-alone as being a self-contradictory postition, in that** it** is an un-Biblical position. Therefore we do not restrict ourselves to it in understanding how the first and second centuries understood the role of Mary. We also do not dismiss the Holy Spirit’s work in the Church over the last two millenia.

One reason why such a debate over Mary is difficult between our two respective faiths, is that we can not agree on what to accept as authority. What I can say, is that it is not un-Biblical (contrary to the Bible) and the basis of our understanding of Mary is found in the Bible.
[/quote]

Since God gave the truth to the Israelites, and their duly appointed spiritual leaders twisted and distorted it by elevating tradition over the Word of God, could the same thing happen again after Christ came?

[quote=justaccord]No you misunderstand me. The only thing that should be discredited is false teaching. Taking the faith given to us by the grace of God and turning it into a different religion based on works and tradition falls into that category.

There is no dispute that Mary was blessed, especially, by God, and that a sword pierced her heart when He was killed in an abominable way. But it looks like the rest of it after that was a figment of human imaginations, that can only be sustained by twisting the English language into an unrecognizable shape.

Interestingly, there is no mention of special reverence of Mary anywhere in the New Testament or in the early church.
Indeed,

Luke 8:19 Then his mother and shis brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. 20 And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”
[/quote]

Mary, is the **prime **example of those who are obedient to God. Jesus called such people “blessed”. Mary said “all generations shall call me blessed”.

Fathers on their regard for Mary:
catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp

Rev 12:
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. [size=1]http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum7&recnu=21&number=385115[/size]

That seems like special honor in the Bible to me! If you saw such a vision today, I’d wager you’d be saying the Rosary by this evening.:yup:

(Also, don’t forget Gabriel’s “hail Mary full of grace”) Is that something you’d say? If not, why not, considering God’s messenger is OK with it?

But it IS Catholic Doctrine. What the Pope and the people are saying is the same. They are alll using the same definition of ‘co- redemdtrix’ ;one who copperated with Christ. Go back and read what John Paul said and plug that definition in there instead of erronous one of equal status that you are using and it will make sense. Do you disagree that seeing him cruxified did not cause her extreme emotional/spiritual pain such that it could be called her ‘cross’ as the Bible likes to refer to our personal trials here? Do you not agree that she experienced His death in a resurecction in a way that was different then the rest of us simply because she was His mother. You are a dad… it would different to watch your own child suffer die then to see someone elses, right?

Also go back and read that response to you as they clearly said no where did it say she is REDEEMER… they didn’t say no where did it say CO-redeemer.

I was RCC for about 20 years as well. I think I officially said they could take my name off the roles at 23, but I had left as a teen. I was raised RCC, went to Catholic School through the 5th grade and attended CCD classes. I think a few years back I may have said ‘I was held in bondage’, but the fact of the matter is I just had no idea what being Catholic meant and for many years I believed some of the anti-Catholic talk such as the Pope being the Anti- christ as stated in the WCF…
What was your age span when you were in the church and were you really taught in any systematic way the correct doctrines?

I have no idea about the cross with Mary on it. I have never seen one offered by any Catholic gift shop or catalog. From what I understand it would not be endorsed. I spose one could assign some artistic license here and let itbe a symbol of the pain and suffering Mary endured in her participation of His Cruxifiction? In some sense we all should see ourselves on the cross as we are asked to crucify our own desires and will.

One other thing you need to keep in mind is the RCC is HUGE! And it’s very old. The fact that they have stuck together so consistantly over the years makes a good argument that they are the True Church. Abuses and lack of education among members is just going to be a fact of life here and there. The same goes for the Prots. There are many Prots I have met that don’t know their doctrine and make errors in their lives, but i don’t judge that denomination’s doctrine based on the error of some.

So bottom line here… there is no contradiction about what co- redeemer means among Caltholics. Just try to accept the RCC meaning and use that definition as you read ( this does mean you have to believe it) and it will all make sense.

There is so much to learn about RCC it’s hard to take it all in. Try listening to Relevent Radio and EWTN for a few MONTHS and you will be better able to understand what they are saying.

So with 5 kids do people always assume you are Catholic too?? Makes my Lutheran dh vey mad! LOL

I listenned last night to EWTN. I heard something that made me laugh. Guess what - JPII’s writings on this subject is NOT DOGMA. It is just his writings!

Boy was my face red! I have to admit that our Protestant friends are right when they accuse us of being confusing…we ARE!!! I always make the mistake of jumping to conclusions when I read stuff our Holy Father writes and/or listen to a homily and sermon. well, how dumb is that! I mean, the Catholic Church has always harbored the most incredible theologians in the world and their ability to think and put forth ideas and discuss in conjunction with prayer and meditation is what has guided us - but it is God that sorts it all out! The Holy Spirit is what guides us, which is why the idea of Mary as co-redemtrix is an idea not a dogma.

That’s people like me, who get confused, are lucky to have all you wonderful folks and the magisterium to guide me. Good heavens, left to my own devices I could think my way into founding my OWN doctrine and church…

I heard a great joke, you guys…there may be a shortage of priests in America, but there is no shortage of people who want to be Pope.:rotfl:

[quote=WynCatholic]Agreed 100%.

You also wrote:
Praise God, He determines the timing of our salvation and the circumstances under which we are saved, although it is always through His Word (Rom. 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.)
yup. 47 years a baptist/an anabaptist/ a preacher
and Bamm! I’m a Catholic Christian now. All by my obedient faith to God’s Gracious call through His Holy Scriptures.
try it- listen to the gospels as you ask yourself… why do they think they’re right? Catholics believe that the writers of the NT meant what they said when they described our Christian life as “one with Christ, dying with Christ, raised with Him, newness of life, Christ in you”. you pray and consider that the ground level truth is truly "Christ in you, the hope of glory"
Col.1:26-29
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. 29To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.

I just feel badly for others who dont know what they’re missing.
Yeah…:slight_smile: We Catholics are praying for you, that you will know His Fullness. You truly don’t know what you’re missing.
[/quote]

Not clear what you’re saying here. That passage from Ephesians is about the saints, not the Saints of catholicism. Every believer is in that category.

And I’m sitting here looking at a great book called “Far From Rome Near to God” – the testimony of 50 converted catholic priests “This book contains the testimonies of many men, most of them unknown to each other and living in different places, who came by God’s grace into this living knowledge of Christ.”

I can understand, brother, the agony and frustration of having to deal with many theologies and doctrines and to long for an authoritative, single body of doctrine to fall back on. But if it is error, then one body of doctrine is far more dangerous than a plurality of them.

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth.

If you changed once, you can change back. Look at the offense of the “sacred tradition” against teh Word of God and rethink it.

I’ll be praying for you as well (does that make me a co-mediator? )

:slight_smile:
sdg

[quote=justaccord]No you misunderstand me. The only thing that should be discredited is false teaching. Taking the faith given to us by the grace of God and turning it into a different religion based on works and tradition falls into that category.

There is no dispute that Mary was blessed, especially, by God, and that a sword pierced her heart when He was killed in an abominable way. But it looks like the rest of it after that was a figment of human imaginations, that can only be sustained by twisting the English language into an unrecognizable shape.

Interestingly, there is no mention of special reverence of Mary anywhere in the New Testament or in the early church.
Indeed,

Luke 8:19 Then his mother and shis brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. 20 And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”
[/quote]

My daughter crashed my zip drive, but in there is an article that very nicely quoted ALL the reformer’s belief’s regarding Mary , and they are all very Catholic sounding! Just start looking around, I just saw these quotes posted somewhere too.

I had sent the piece to one of the elder’s at church and his best reply was " Even the reformers got some things wrong. " LOL Though he fully admitted the beliefs were stated correctly, but of course we are all a lot smarter now and don’t believe such foolishness IOW- we pick and chose what we want to believe is true of the reformation.

But it is there in the early church and this is were Tradtition plays a huge role and needing to trust the Church is sealed by God Himself and can’t be swayed. If it was there for all those years, by whose authority was Mary dethroned? If you God’s… then you will have to prove He was unable to hold His own church for the years prior to the reformation.
Which is where I am at this moment in my walk… so far no luck. :wink:

First of all, do you think that Jesus broke the commandments. Because if his words are to be taking literally then he has just dishonored his parent. A big no, no in the bible. It is true that we are God’s children, but if I took that verse literally then I could go around calling myself the mother of Jesus. No, Jesus was talking in hyperbol-saying extreme things to make a point. Do you know any Christians who are plucking out their eyes or cutting off their hands? Of course not. Also, if Jesus was denying his mom then why did he make certain that she had someone to care for her after his death?

Just a little blurb on the whole Mary crucified thing:

Mary Crucified?

The original release of Catholicism: Crisis Of Faith showed a statue depicting a woman on a crucifix. The statue was said to be located in the cathedral
of Quito, Ecuador. The narrator explained that Catholics have so confused the role of Mary in redemption, equating her work with her Son’s, that they believe she, too, suffered for their sins.

But the confusion resides not in the Catholic Church but in the minds of McCarthy and the video’s producers. The Most Rev. Antonio Arregui, Auxiliary Bishop of Quito, certified that the statue in question is not in the city’s cathedral but in a monastery in Quito. More important, the woman depicted is not Mary but a young woman martyr, Santa Liberata. She is said to have been the daughter of a Portuguese prince. “Her father wished to marry her to a non-Christian and corrupt prince,” explains Bishop Arregui. “When she refused, her father ordered that she be crucified.” McCarthy was made aware of this grotesque blunder, but he admits it was still in the video as late as 21 months after its initial release.

The fact that such an outlandish claim—that Mary, too, was crucified—appeared in the original version at all shows McCarthy’s sloppy scholarship.

[quote=Doihavtasay]There are many Prots I have met that don’t know their doctrine and make errors in their lives, but i don’t judge that denomination’s doctrine based on the error of some.
[/quote]

AMEN. And it is true of Muslims, and Mormons, and everyone else I can think of. That’s the problem, in a way, with these forums. If I took all of the catholic responses on this and other websites I sometimes visit and put them together, the result is a confused jumble.

There is one question though that I cannot seem to get an answer to – if catechism #969 is just referring to Mary as co-mediator in the same sense that every Christian is a co-mediator every time he or she utters an intercessory prayer, or is Mary somehow a co-mediator in some special way different than me in prayer?

No, they dont think I’m catholic. You may find this hard to believe, but anyone who is around me for more than about 15 seconds wouldnt think so. :slight_smile:

sdg

Technically, praying for one another is a form of mediation.:slight_smile:

I am from a Protestant background, also and going to start RCIA classes this May. I am so overjoyed at being brought to the Catholic faith.

[quote=justaccord]I’ll be praying for you as well (does that make me a co-mediator? )
[/quote]

No, but it makes you a mediator.

Christ is God’s only Son. But in Christ we are all sons. No contradiction there. Christ is the one priest. But in Christ, we are all priests. No contradiction there. Christ is the one mediator. But in Christ, we are all mediators. Why, all of a sudden, is this a contradiction? In Christ, we have been given all things. Mary being in Christ, there is no reason she would not also be given all things.

[quote=justaccord]how many co-mediators catholics claim there are-- is it every one of us, every time we pray an intercessory prayer? How many co-redeemers are there – every one of us, because we are saved?
[/quote]

Would you find that problematic provided the “co” redeemers were completely subsumed in Christ as “laborers together with God: you are God’s husbandry, you are God’s building” (I Cor 3:9)?

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