I have had a relationship with Mary ever since I was a kid and read about St. Louis de Montfort’s devotion. I have enjoyed reading a few books on her over the years. I would like to know however if there is any incontrovertible evidence in the Bible for Catholic claims about her. I use to have a book called All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed by an Italian priest but I have lost it over time. I never got a chance to finish reading it. Anyhow, I understand how Protestants can disagree with us text interpretation. First I wanted to ask whether the angel really said “full of GRACE”, or is gracia just in the latin text. I don’t think this proves Mary never sinned in her life, but merely that she was sinless at that moment. When Mary says "i know not man’ I have always since I was young thought she meant she had up to that time never had relations and understood that she was to be impregnated at that moment. From all the Bible verses I know about her, I don’t see any smoking gun with regard to apologetics on her. Am I wrong? Is a smoking gun even claimed by Catholic apologists?
Xaire Maria, kekaratomene. That’s the original Greek (might need a spell check). It means a lot… Search a concordance.
Immaculate conception is from fittingness, and witness to her life by those who knew her… She didn’t sin, how do we understand that, etc. It is ultimately a magisterial issue though, nothing pulled directly from the Text. St. Thomas famously got this one wrong.
Perpetual virginity… Witness to her life. Also, the response she gives to Gabriel only makes sense in this context. Think about it… If she was planning on such a marriage, she would not be asking what she’s asking.
Remember that she is a real human being, who people lived with and talked to. That gets lost sometimes…
Mary’s response makes sense if she understood she was going to get pregnant at that moment. “i know not man” would mean “how am I to get pregnant right now without having had sex”. That is how I’ve always understood it
…anyone can interpret Scriptures any way they want: Jews reject Christ (the New Testament and every Christian); Jehovah Witnesses reject Christ (they relegate Him to some sort of Greco/Roman-like demigod or “special” angel); Mormons (well… they are special: ’ Bible good ‘cause it points to the Book of Mormons–now put away the Bible!’); then there are the numerous “believers” and non-believers who along with the previously mentioned based their beliefs on Scriptures (well, their interpretations of Scriptures).
Since I’m not sure what you are referring to I will simply list what I know of Scriptures about the Virgin Mary:
Mother of God: This is a difficult pill to swallow; a common human woman being the Mother of God?
Don’t take it from me:
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because**[size=] what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit**[/size]. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he** will save his people from their sins**.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”). (St. Matthew 1:20-23)
35 The angel answered, “The **[size=]Holy Spirit **[/size]will come on you, and **the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one **to be born will be called the Son of God.
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the** Holy Spirit**. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that **the mother of my Lord **should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.(St. Luke 1:35, 41-44)
The Virgin chosen by God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is visited by the Holy Spirit (the Third Person of God) and the Word (the Second Person of God) becomes Incarnate (is conceived in her womb). Gabriel sends Mary both on a quest of confirmation and on a display of God’s Fulfillment–Elizabeth, at the second her baby (John the Baptist) infuses her with the Holy Spirit that already resides in him, venerates Mary, the Mother of her Lord (God). Scriptures tell us that Jesus is God and that the Virgin Mary is His mom.
Interestingly enough the title Mother of God emphasizes that Jesus, the Word Incarnate, never ceases being God–Mary is never divinized by the Church!
Protestants can disagree with anything that the Church Teaches; yet, they cannot disagree nor disobey Scriptures–still, they go out of their way to ignore any passages that demonstrates that their theology is wrong and that the Catholic Church has always had it right:
All generations will call me blessed:
48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. (St. Luke 1:48)
Wow, Mary’s reply to Elizabeth unapologetically attests that humanity throughout the ages will call her Blessed!
This of course, ties in with the angel Gabriel’s salutation: Mary, Full of Grace. Being so Blessed by God that she is chosen to give birth to the Immanuel and inspired by the Holy Spirit, Mary seems to tout her own horn… but is she really being boastful or is there something deeper going on?
Well, here’s how Mary’s “Song” starts:
My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (St. Luke 1:46b-47)
…WOW! Mary is searching deep inside of herself… MY SOUL MAGNIFIES GOD AS MY SPIRIT REJOICES IN HIM WHO IS MY SAVIOR!
…and how does she connects with the world? …well, Mary is part of Israel’s Remnant (those Believers amongst God’s chosen people who remained faithful to Yahweh God’s Promise) and she sees God’s Fulfillment for the Israel and the world come to pass in her Conception:
54 He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: 55 As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever. (St. Luke 1:54-55)
We will convince exactly no one from the scriptures, as they are more frequently twisted than read correctly. However, the bible points irrefutably to the Church, and the Church has declared certain things. The fact that many do not believe Catholic doctrines means absolutely nothing. Neither do atheists believe them.
I have some links that may also help, but also keep in mind that the theme of every Marian apparition is the same as Mary’s message in John 2:5. “Do whatever he tells you” which is about as Biblical as anyone can get.
It should also be stated that these beliefs are not just Catholic beliefs. They are shared by both our Oriental Orthodox (schism of 451 AD) and Eastern Orthodox (schism of 1054 AD) brothers and sisters. There are nuanced differences, and Catholics have more private devotions towards Mary, but the beliefs are:
[LIST]That Mary is the Mother of God[/LIST]
*]That Mary was perpetually a virgin
*]That Mary was sinless throughout her life
*]That Mary was bodily assumed into heaven
*]That Mary is Queen of Heaven and Earth
*]That Mary is mother of the church
Also, I would not say Marian doctrines are simply extra-biblical. In addition to tradition, careful reading of the Old Testament along with the New points to Mary as the new Eve, as the Ark of the Covenant, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, etc . . . The language and imagery used by the New Testament authors tie into language used for different concepts in the Old Testament, such that the Old foreshadows the new and the New reveals the Old.
I found this brief, 99 cent transcript of a talk Scott Hahn gave to be useful in briefly highlighting some of the major points, though it’s not all that can be said:
This second book, a collection of works by Benedict XVI and Hans Urs Von Balthasar, I also found very illuminating. Though, I should be clear that this second book isn’t really focused on tying the Old to the New, it made a profound impression on me on the role of Mariology and Mary in the Church.
If you look at what St. Gabriel says, he never says WHEN or how she will conceive until AFTER she gives the *how can this be? *response. Which truly makes her response of how can this be at that particular moment very odd, if she had intended to have normal marital relations with St. Joseph.
The DIRECT COMMAND of Jesus Christ, GOD Himself spoken from the Cross:
John 19:26-27 (Douay-Rheims Bible)
When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.
The word Behold is defined as follows:
v. be·held (-hĕld′), be·hold·ing, be·holds
v.tr. To see, look upon, or gaze at
and the word Gaze is defined as
intr.v. gazed, gaz·ing, gaz·es
To look steadily, intently, and with fixed attention.
Jesus therefore commanded John to behold thy mother (Mary), that is, a direct instruction to contemplate Mary with unwavering fixed attention.
Tradition tells us John was the youngest and perhaps very young.
The young and tender boy St. John was weeping uncontrollably at the foot of the cross.
Jesus gave Mary His mother to John to comfort him.
KE – perfect tense (prior event/occurrence/happening that is still existing/occurring or happening now)
CHARITO – a gift, something that is free or unmerited
MENE – a female receiver not giver.
The Latin translation “gratia plena” (full of grace, as found in Dhouay-Rheims) is not a literal translation from the Greek.
English translation of the Latin phrase “gratia plena” (Latin Vulgate):
Full of grace (noun)
Literal English translation of the Greek word “kecharitomene”:
You who have been graced (verb)
The Old Latin MSS (A.D. 150-200) had a literal translation of the Greek word “kecharitomene”:
Grafitificata (noun) (source)
English translation of the Latin phrase “grafitificata” (Vetus Latina):
You who have been graced (verb)
The Greek word κεχαριτωμένη in reference to Mary denotes her status as someone who “found favor or grace with God” (Luke 1:30).
The translation “full of grace” (from the Latin Vulgate’s “gratia plena”)is valid:
“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament)
‘Highly favoured’ (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians 1:6 . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena [full of grace] "is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’ " (A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 14)
Correct. But the point I was trying to make was the the angel did not say, “Hail Mary”. He said, “Hail, kecharitomene.” The name “Mary” was not mentioned. This is important because it then makes “kecharitomene” a title of sorts.
It’s pretty much like calling someone “Hey, handsome!” It regards the person as the embodiment, so to speak, of the adjective being used.
I follow your meaning… it is interesting that the term is found in Scriptures only in two instances–it bewilders me how people do not understand, from the content itself, how high a praise this is; Mary is taken aback as she physically demonstrates her surprise with the salutation:
29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. (St. Luke 1:29-30)
…though this is clearly a second-hand dissertation, it seems important to St. Luke to convey the Virgin’s state of mind as she receives such greetings.
…‘hey, you, amongst many,’ just don’t quite get the gist of it! :juggle::juggle::juggle: