Mary is very popular in Apologetic Discussion


#1

I can’t believe how much Mary is so popular in Apologetic Discussion. I came to this thread and see like more than one Marian thread. In the Non-Catholic thread, there also another Marian thread.

Perhaps those who have issue with Mary have deep love in her… :smiley:


#2

It is a popular tactic of the devil to use whatever means possible to distract people from the Truths of the Catholic Church. The Blessed Virgin is a favorite point of attack for Protestants because it keeps the focus off of the truly divisive issues like justification. Further in regards to propaganda it is one more stumbling block protestants have set up for anyone wanting to take a fair look at Catholicism (notice how Mary is the BIGGEST issue for many Protestants looking into Catholicism).

Also, more importantly, She provides a fail safe “response” to any Catholic claims, especially when things get heated. (ie if you dont know what to say, just play the Mary card and you win)


#3

Hey I think it is the Blessed Virgin’s intercession that brought me home. Talk about a “prayer warrior”!:love: :extrahappy:


#4

I dont think that is true at all. Justification is a VERY popular topic here. Justification IS the most important topic to protestants and seems to be in the top 10 active topics most of the time. The Marian doctrines are discussed because they are so clearly non biblical and obviously novel ideas not heard of until many hundreds of years after the resurrection.


#5

Mary was the most difficult obstacles for me becoming Catholic.

Today, she’s one of the most glorious reasons I stay!

If you genuinely believe that focusing on Mary subtracts from Christ, and that Marian devotion is idolatrous (if not diabolical), you can understand the reluctance, if not hostility. Our separated brethren fear being deceived, and when fear is in the mix, people do not always think clearly or rationally.

Anyway, I digress! With all generations, I too call her Blessed!

I love you Mama!


#6

I just love her so much. There are times when I disappointed her and her son. :blush:

I amazes me how St. Bernaddette speak of Mary as “Beautiful Lady” more beautiful than all the ladies in France.


#7

I also love the Blessed Mother so much. They say that each time you pray a Hail Mary, it’s like handing her a rose. :slight_smile:


#8

Many hundreds? Not true; the early Church fathers refer to the Marian doctrines as old, settled doctrine. Already by only 130 years after Christ’s resurrection, she is universally acknowledged as the Mother of God (Theotokos, or “God bearer”) and no true disciple would argue that.

St. Justin Martyr (ca AD 155, Dialogue with Typho the Jew)
Identifies Mary as the new Eve, because Eve “conceived the word of the serpent, and bore disobedience and death” but Mary “received faith and joy” and bore for us our Savior in obedience to God.

St. Irenaeus (Against Heresies, inter AD 180-199)
Again referring to Mary as the new Eve:
“Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary had loosed through faith.”

“The Virgin Mary… being obedient to His word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God.”

Tertullian (The Flesh of Christ, inter AD 208-212)
"… why is Christ called Adam by the Apostle?.. God recovered His image and likeness in a procedure similar to that in which He had been robbed of it by the devil. … Likewise, through a Virgin, the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. … Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight."

Even before the early Church fathers, Mary is in the book of Revelation: “a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” in childbirth with a son. His name is not directly mentioned, but it is obvious that the child is Christ, so the woman is Mary. The dragon fighting her is clearly identified as Satan (Rev 12:9).

Do you want to stand with the dragon or with the woman?


#9

Mother of God in defense of Jesus being God. It ascribes nothing to Mary.

St. Justin Martyr (ca AD 155, Dialogue with Typho the Jew)
Identifies Mary as the new Eve, because Eve “conceived the word of the serpent, and bore disobedience and death” but Mary “received faith and joy” and bore for us our Savior in obedience to God.

Typology, interesting but meaningless for The Salvation from God was not dependent on Mary.

St. Irenaeus (Against Heresies, inter AD 180-199)
Again referring to Mary as the new Eve:
“Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary had loosed through faith.”

Seeds of Co-Redemptrix Error.

Tertullian (The Flesh of Christ, inter AD 208-212)
"… why is Christ called Adam by the Apostle?.. God recovered His image and likeness in a procedure similar to that in which He had been robbed of it by the devil. … Likewise, through a Virgin, the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. … Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight."

Mary’s believing is of no more importance than Abraham, Moses, Davids, or John the Baptists part in Gods plan of salvation.

Even before the early Church fathers, Mary is in the book of Revelation: “a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” in childbirth with a son. His name is not directly mentioned, but it is obvious that the child is Christ, so the woman is Mary. The dragon fighting her is clearly identified as Satan (Rev 12:9).

Actually the early church saw the woman as Israel and later on Mary.

Do you want to stand with the dragon or with the woman?

I stand behind the Savior!


#10

Before I converted, Mary was a major obstacle for me as well.

In fact, I can remember having an argument with a Catholic friend of mine where I acted a lot like kaycee is acting here. My primary point was that Mary was just an ordinary Jewish woman and we didn’t owe her any extra respect at all.

I have since apologised to my friend for that argument (which took place years ago, I’m not even sure that she remembered).

I don’t think I can even explain how one’s view of Our Lady changes once you understand her role and the reality of what took place from the Annunciation to Calvary to Assumption.

You can explain it in words here, but I don’t know that it will do much for those who don’t really bother to comprehend. Trying to explain the love of Mary by typing on a keyboard seems futile really. Now I know why my friend was so frustrated with me all those years ago.


#11

The difference is that even if the seeds of the doctrines can be found earlier, prior to the ex cathedra statements about the Immaculate Conception (1854?) and the Assumption (1950?), you could be a faithful Catholic with a different opinion regarding these matters. Afterwards, you could not. Both of these declarations were hundreds of years after the formation of the Protestant Churches and, so, while not significant subjects of argument during the Reformation have become so since.


#12

Very nice post. :slight_smile:


#13

Council of Ephesus defend the divinity of Jesus Christ in response to the heresy of Nestorianism in 491 A.D. The Church council defined this and it is recognized by both Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and conversative Anglican, and even Lutheran Churches.

Typology, interesting but meaningless for The Salvation from God was not dependent on Mary.

Through the prophets of the OT, Issiah spoke of a virgin who shall conceived and bear a son. This woman he spoke of is the Virgin Mary. Mary consented to God’s will, and the Word became flesh. God if he wish incarnate as an adult male. Salvation history shows that Jesus came from the flesh of a woman, Mary. So indirectly, Mary is very much involve in salvation history by being the Mother of God.

Seeds of Co-Redemptrix Error.

Mary’s believing is of no more importance than Abraham, Moses, Davids, or John the Baptists part in Gods plan of salvation.

Actually the early church saw the woman as Israel and later on Mary.

I stand behind the Savior!

You are entitled your your opinion. The Early Church saw the woman in Revelation 12:1 as Mary. While the woman in Revelation 12:1 is symbolic understood as Israel, and the Church, they also view literally that the woman is Mary.

“He was the** ark **formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the** pure Mary**.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold!** You are the Ark **in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, **a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace **has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for **everovercoming sin **in y particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

“As he formed her** without my stain of her own**, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

Christian history again disproves your opinions. Like Cardinal Newman states, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”


#14

of the Catholic Church. The Blessed Virgin is a favorite point of attack for Protestants because it keeps the focus off of the truly divisive issues like justification. Further in regards to propaganda it is one more stumbling block protestants have set up for anyone wanting to take a fair look at Catholicism (notice how Mary is the BIGGEST issue for many Protestants looking into Catholicism).

Also, more importantly, She provides a fail safe “response” to any Catholic claims, especially when things get heated. (ie if you dont know what to say, just play the Mary card and you win)
[/quote]

Hi All
I know That dont speak for all Protestants, but I would guess that for the most we feel Marian devotion is a tactic used by satan to keep your mind off Jesus. We feel that if your spending time Praying to Mary means less time Praying to Jesus.
It’s kinda like if I need to paint my house, but I spend time talking to guy at the paint supply house I’m not getting much painting done. Sorry if thats a bad illustration, I’m not comparing Mary to a guy at the paint shop. I feel that there is a big difference in Praying TO someone and asking someone to Pray for me.


#15

Let me put this in simple terms so not as to offend you and others NonCatholic Christians.

Asking Mary to pray for us, is like asking your friends, and family to pray for us. Why? Because we believe we are community a communion of saints. God is not the God of the dead, but the living. We believe those who died in God’s grace remain members of the Church, and they are more alive than us except no bodies. Therefore, we cannot ignore our departed brothers and sisters in Christ. We are family. Why do you think Jesus call God, Our Father in the first place. Like they say in the Army, Family First.


#16

Sorry Christian History certainly affirms my position. 400 years after the fact hardly supports your contentions. Clearly there is zero scriptural support, while many orthodox Christian doctrines are clearly elaborated on repeatedly.

Show me any scripture regarding the Marian doctrines that must be believed for salvation.


#17

Honor thy father and mother and in the Hebrew text reads literally, “Glorify your father and mother.” Now, if Jesus brings glory to His Mother by giving her honor, how much more honor should you be giving her? Have you begun to call her “blessed”?


#18

It is pointless chatting with you. You have been in this forum for over a year now, and you probably have tons of discussion about Mary.

We gave you Scripture Text from scripturecatholic.com and biblechristiansociety.com

And even provided you Vatican documents. You with your hardness of your HEART refuse to listen. We use Biblical typology of interpreting Scripture, and using varies theological means to explain them.

We have not only given Scripture of a Catholic Prospective, and writings of the ECF.

In my opinion, you are just a waste of time for my part. You aren’t as open as ALLFORHIM and happygal, the only two Protestants who are willing to listen and try to understand. You are just as worst as James White, and I think you are a disgrace to your Protestant Brothers and sisters.

I rank you with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. In my opinion, I no longer respect you as a Christian because of your lukewarm heart by refusing to understand Catholic doctrine! I’m done with you kaycee, you are now on my ignore box


#19

My last words to kaycee, you insult Mary, you insult Jesus!


#20

Hey, don’t let this guy bother you brother, praise God folks like Kaycee are sent here to raise up new apologists and strengthen others:thumbsup:


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