Mary Never Truly Died


#21

Sola scriptura is the proper term for a faith that is solely based on one’s personal interpretation of Scripture. Emphasis on the word solely.

This sola scriptura term is not meant to be a pejorative. It is an accurate term and people who subscribe to this belief use it themselves. I also don’t see why you consider those who use this term to be weak in Scripture knowledge. Kind of ironic that you accuse others of casting aspersions and then go on casting aspersions yourself.

Catholics and I believe also Anglicans, have a faith based not only on Scripture but in Tradition. Catholics also have the Magisterium to rely on for the proper interpretation of Scripture.


#22

] Giving the benefit of the doubt, I will assume you are not actually intentionally dismissive and arrogant in your attempt at a refutation of my post.

First, I’ve read the CCC more times than I can count, so you are wrong in your assumption that I am unfamiliar with it’s contents. Secondly, as a former Protestant, I LEARNED the term Sola Scriptura explicitly FROM that branch of Christianity. So my experience conflicts with yours. Which one of us is right and why? Your attempt to paint all those who reference “sola scriptura” as weak in scripture knowledge is pejorative in itself which, ironcially, you accuse my response of being. You might want to check your name-calling, there.

Additionally, you supplied ONE verse, taken out of the context of the Bible as your basis for, again, relying soley on Scripture. Jesus relied on both Scripture AND oral tradition in His teachings to his disciples. When reading the Bible as a whole, we find that there are examples of Jesus relying on BOTH scripture, which is inspired and wholly appropriate for teaching, as well as oral tradition, which is clearly endorsed within the gospels.

This makes clear that both scripture and tradition are taught as the basis for understanding the the faith. Therefore, if the one with whom you are discussing articles of faith does not accept Tradition as authoritative, then you are dealing with someone who relies on the Bible as the “last word”. There has to be an agreement between two parties of what is authoritative before you can use an argument based on authority.

Points for being bold and brash, though :wink:


#23

Absolutely…I have heard more than a few Evangelicals listen respectfully and at least acknowledge that they understand why we accord her the respect we do, just that they don’t agree with our logic, as they have been taught different logic. I can respect that position as I feel, basically, the same about their position on Mary. This is a mature exchange of ideas and, indeed, is what is asked of us by Jesus. Ad hominem attacks, distraction tactics and name-calling is not a mature exchange of ideas that changes lives and allows for both parities to be open to information they had previously not considered.

Those who follow the religion of Islam are also quite respectful of the Mother of God, as well. Also, Anglicans, as you have pointed out.


#24

No, its in the NT Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael contended with the devil and disputed about the body of Moses, he did not dare to bring a condemnation of slander against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”


#25

I. MARY’S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

Wholly united with her Son . . .

[964] Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

965 After her Son’s Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

. . . also in her Assumption

[966] "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509


#26

Continuation

she is our Mother in the order of grace

[967] By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” ( typus )510 of the Church.

[968] Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

[969] **“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”**512

[970] "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 **“No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”**514


#27

You are right


#28

Well few Christians still assume such things,if quoting Scripture is what you means ,Catholic listen to the Scriptures each day during Mass or on at least on Sundays and living the faith is much more important don’t you thinks .Sola Scriptura is never in the bible.All the teaching of the Catholic Church are based on Scripture as well as the unspoken Word of God from the very lips of Jesus and the Apostles.

It’s wrong to say that the Church doesn’t base their belief on Scriptures

Catechism of the Catholic Church
In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

  • orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33

  • in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34

. . . continued in apostolic succession

[77] "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

[78] This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39


#29

Granted, this guy isn’t really that Bible-based, since he claims Mary’s death was recorded in Scripture.

Neither Mary’s (possible) death nor assumption are recorded explicitly in Scripture. There’s a passage or two that some Catholics have interpreted as referencing her assumption, but the debate around her death and the belief in her assumption come mostly from Tradition and theology. Protestants generally reject the former if it doesn’t already agree with them. The latter can work when it comes to addressing Marian dogma, but that really depends on how willing the person is to accepting stuff that isn’t always explicitly stated.

I’m not entirely sure why you’re citing this, but if you’re trying to imply that the Magisterium just uses Scripture, you’d be wrong. If you read CCC 85 first, you’d find that “Word of God” refers to both Scripture and Tradition. We pull from the “single deposit of faith” that is the Word of God, but God’s Word was not given to us through the writing of Scripture alone.

As a former Protestant, Sola Scriptura is huge in some branches, often right alongside Sola Fide. Sites like Ligonier and CARM have articles dedicated to it. There’s been discussion recently about whether or not Evangelicals hold to it or have a more extreme variant called Solo Scriptura that misses the point. To say that it is just used by Biblically-ignorant Catholics is, quite ironically, very historically and theologically ignorant.

Catholics aren’t against citing Scripture. We’re against citing Scripture while doing the following to any other source of truth that opposes one’s (faulty) interpretation of Scripture:

More traditional forms of Protestantism have at least some grounding in Tradition, some more than others. Their understanding of what tradition is and how it should be approached and used are obviously different from Catholics, though.


#30

Is he into some sort of Gnosticism? What Bible is he using?


#31

FWIW, Mary was so united with her Son, I have no doubt that she might have been offered the ability to bypass death, since death had no natural claim on her due to her sinlessness— but I would expect she would had chosen to subject herself to death, so as not to indulge in a privilege her Son had declined.

So we refer to the passing of Mary as the Dormition, and we don’t teach that she passed on in one specific way vs another, just that she “completed her earthly life.”

But yeah. If anyone says, “Mary’s death in the Bible isn’t the way you think it is,” the answer is, “Oh? Can you show me the page so we can discuss it?” because it isn’t in the Bible in the first place.


#32

Interesting. I’ve generally considered her sinlessness the main reason to believe she never died. I never really considered that she may have chosen death regardless out of love and respect for Jesus. That would at least offer the theological explanation for her death, along with the already-existing early Church stories where she died.


#33

And she may very well have died a physical death before she was assumed.

The Catholic Church requires us to believe in her Assumption, but takes no position on whether she died and was then assumed, or was assumed without having to experience physical death. We are free to believe that she died or didn’t die, as long as we believe she was assumed into heaven body and soul, whether before death or after death.


#34

Mary did die eventually. Eventhough her death is not recorded in the Bible she died eventually. Since we will all die eventually. Because no human can live to be over 2,000 years old. There are only two humans who never died- Enoch and Elijah

Elijah in 2 Kings chapter 2

Enoch in genesis chapter 5.


#35

I got into a sincere discussion with a Lutheran pastor about Mary. He, nor the Lutherans I know treat Mary with contempt, but they do basically consider her to be an incubator ( they never use those words, of course). He argued, as he does in his Bible classes and what he tells the congregation, that Mary wasn’t a perpetual virgin. Once he rudely ( in my opinion) told me that we don’t need to “check under Mary’s dress” too see if she was a virgin. That was a horrible thing to say. I told him that not only Martin Luther believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity, but so did their ‘Book of Concord’ and so is their official church (LCMS) doctrine. I had to point out exactly where in the Book of Concord that stated that doctrine, that the LCMS states that the book is based on scripture, according to their faith), and the most important thing of all, that as a pastor in his faith, the Lutheran Church, LCMS, Missouri Synod, that he took an oath to adhere to the Book of Concord as their correct (to them) interpretation of scripture, and that he was duty bound to believe in the perpetual virginity and his duty to teach it whenever the subject comes up. And not to just give his personal opinion. He’s being extremely misleading to his congregation and not teaching official church doctrine if he taught otherwise. He had no answer to that one. I was only trying to be honest. I honestly don’t think he even knew his own church doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity. And it all matters to me because my wife is Lutheran and the pastor is her pastor. I pointed out the contradiction to her, not to be argumentative, but to show her the correct teachings of her faith. She believed me after I showed her the church’ s doctrine. I did it for her benefit and for Mary’s.


#36

Honestly, I think some - not all but some - Protestant ministers just make it up as they go along. Nobody is really making them stay in line, so they don’t.


#37

They wouldn’t think they’d be ‘making it up’, they’d be thinking that the Holy Spirit 'led them" to their understanding. After all, Scripture says The Holy Spirit will 'lead us to all truth", so if they feel the Spirit is saying it, it MUST be true.


#38

Reminds me of this: ‘You must know that the old enemy tries by all means in his power to hinder your desire for good and to turn you from every devotional practice, especially from the veneration of the saints.’ - The Imitation of Christ


#39

If Enoch and Elijah aren’t supernatural and were taken up to Heaven while still alive then where are they? Where IS heaven and how can E&E still be living and breathing in outer space?


#40

The thought just came to me. Each of us believes in Jesus Christ and that He works in our lives. Yet not every action of God that takes place in our lives is written down. Does that mean it did not happen?
Of course not. God continues to work in each one of our lives on a daily life.
Many of those who look to sola scriptura as their sole basis of what to accept regarding Faith forget that. Mary continued to live even after Christ’s resurrection from the dead. Tradition holds that she lived an earthly life of 72 years.
The Eastern Church refers to Mary’s death as the Dormitron, or falling asleep and many Orthodox Churches commemorate this falling asleep of the Virgin who carried Christ in her womb. Accepting the truth of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary is not strictly a Western dogma. It has been taught from the earliest of times, although only in the twentieth century put into actual words.
Had she simply died a natural death, without being assumed into heaven, there would be a grave to mark her burial place. It is no such place of pilgrimage.
What is written in Scripture ends with the Acts of the Apostles, in terms of what happened historically. It does not tell of the missions the Apostles took, even so far as Thomas taking the gospel to India. Does that mean these events did not happen? Every Apostle, except John died a martyrs death. None of these events can be proven Biblically. Yet they are historical. The Gospel of Jesus Christ continues to be spread.
As Catholics, we rely on Apostolic teaching (Tradition), as well as that which is written, what has been remained intact from the time of Christ by the Power of the Holy Spirit. These teachings have been entrusted to the teaching authority of the Church (the magisterium), the successors of the Apostles.


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