Mary?


#1

I was asked a question of which I don’t know the Church’s psoition nor do I know the politics involved. It was about Mary being Co-Redemptrix (sp) or Mediatrix.
I have heard of it before but I have never had a protestant make a point of it to me. Since I am ignorant of the subject I am asking for your knowledge of the subject. Not just one side or the other, but all sides of the argument. Thanks for your help.

P.S. I realize this is probably a subject which has been covered in the past, if this is so could someone just point me in the direction of the old thread.


#2

[quote=pkmksk]I was asked a question of which I don’t know the Church’s psoition nor do I know the politics involved. It was about Mary being Co-Redemptrix (sp) or Mediatrix.
I have heard of it before but I have never had a protestant make a point of it to me. Since I am ignorant of the subject I am asking for your knowledge of the subject. Not just one side or the other, but all sides of the argument. Thanks for your help.

P.S. I realize this is probably a subject which has been covered in the past, if this is so could someone just point me in the direction of the old thread.
[/quote]

Mary is Co-Redemptrix in that by her cooperation in the Incarnation, God was made man and was able to redeem the world.

It doesn’t mean that Mary plays a role in our redemption.


#3

[quote=pkmksk]I was asked a question of which I don’t know the Church’s psoition nor do I know the politics involved. It was about Mary being Co-Redemptrix (sp) or Mediatrix.
I have heard of it before but I have never had a protestant make a point of it to me. Since I am ignorant of the subject I am asking for your knowledge of the subject. Not just one side or the other, but all sides of the argument. Thanks for your help.

P.S. I realize this is probably a subject which has been covered in the past, if this is so could someone just point me in the direction of the old thread.
[/quote]

I was bombarded by non-Catholics who told me that Mary wasn’t a C0-Redemptrix or whatever…but just anti-Catholic stuff.


#4

Here’s a nice article about her role as mediatrix:

christianperfection.info/tta16.htm


#5

[quote=pkmksk]I was asked a question of which I don’t know the Church’s psoition nor do I know the politics involved. It was about Mary being Co-Redemptrix (sp) or Mediatrix.
I have heard of it before but I have never had a protestant make a point of it to me. Since I am ignorant of the subject I am asking for your knowledge of the subject. Not just one side or the other, but all sides of the argument. Thanks for your help.

P.S. I realize this is probably a subject which has been covered in the past, if this is so could someone just point me in the direction of the old thread.
[/quote]

First point: there are several different schools of thought among Catholic theologians as to precisely what is involved in that title - for it is one thing to use the title, and another to say what it means. Unless the meaning is stable, there is no way to guard the meaning of it against being endlessly distorted.

I believe that this idea needs to be thrashed out very fully - it is essential that the basic shape of the Christian faith is not distorted and knocked off-balance: ISTM that concerns Protestants have about this idea are well-founded. I would like to see websites which look at the objections to the idea in a calm and theologically-informed fashion. Do they exist ?

Incidentally, your spelling is perfectly correct :slight_smile: ##


#6

[quote=chadwilliams]Mary is Co-Redemptrix in that by her cooperation in the Incarnation, God was made man and was able to redeem the world.

It doesn’t mean that Mary plays a role in our redemption.
[/quote]

According to some schools of thought among theologians, it does; especially if one interprets her mediation as universal in all respects: the two ideas - doctrines, some would insist - re-inforce each other.

There are very readable articles on all this in the 1967 New Catholic Encyclopedia. ##


#7

[quote=Genesis315]Here’s a nice article about her role as mediatrix:

christianperfection.info/tta16.htm
[/quote]

Here is another nice article about her role as mediatrix:

bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=2&verse=5&version=31&context=verse


#8

I remember something about with God nothing is impossible. If God had to, without Mary, he could have formed Jesus out of the dust like Adam. So Mary was chosen by God, not because of anything she did or that God had to have her help in birthing Jesus. Scripture is fulfilled the way it happened. Even though there has been much distortion about the true Mary of the Bible I would not take one thing away from the woman called blessed by the Holy Scriptures. To say that she was co-anything with God is to make Mary equal with God. That is unbiblical. Mary is chosen of God, blessed, virgin when Jesus was born, and a repentant sinner(rejoiced in God her savior), and nothing more. We should look to Jesus Christ alone for salvation, He said “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me”. Christ alone.


#9

[quote=RonWI]Here is another nice article about her role as mediatrix:

bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=2&verse=5&version=31&context=verse
[/quote]

It doesn’t say anything about Jesus and men. Plus, if someone prays for you, they are a meaditor of God’s graces that are directed to you as a result of the prayer. St. Paul says to pray for one another, in essence be mediators.


#10

[quote=truthinlove]I remember something about with God nothing is impossible. If God had to, without Mary, he could have formed Jesus out of the dust like Adam. So Mary was chosen by God, not because of anything she did or that God had to have her help in birthing Jesus. Scripture is fulfilled the way it happened. Even though there has been much distortion about the true Mary of the Bible I would not take one thing away from the woman called blessed by the Holy Scriptures. To say that she was co-anything with God is to make Mary equal with God. That is unbiblical. Mary is chosen of God, blessed, virgin when Jesus was born, and a repentant sinner(rejoiced in God her savior), and nothing more. We should look to Jesus Christ alone for salvation, He said “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me”. Christ alone.
[/quote]

Co does not mean “equal to” in this case. For example, a co-pilot is not equal to the pilot. The co-redemptrix is not equal to the redeemer.


#11

[quote=Genesis315]It doesn’t say anything about Jesus and men.
[/quote]

You’re joking, right? If not, you might want to re-read it.


#12

pkmksk,

Think of it this way. God sent Gabriel to ask Mary to be the Mother of God.
She could have said no.
So in a certain sense God predicated redemption on Mary’s decision to say yes or not.

It was because of Mary’s Yes that CHrist was born and redemption occured.

It is in this sense that Mary cooperated with God.
Remember that co redemptrix means with the redeemer.
Co means with.

It is not a statement of equality. It simply means that she played a unique role that God chose to give her.

Saying Mary is a co-redemptrix doesn’t take away from Jesus. It just affirms God’s plan of redemption by choosing Mary.

Protestants get all hung up and think that somehow Mary won our salvation for us. This is NOT what co-redemptix means.

The terms savior and redeemer are not theologically equal. They have different theological meanings.

Mary is NOT a co-savior.


#13

[quote=Dan-Man916]pkmksk,

Think of it this way. God sent Gabriel to ask Mary to be the Mother of God.
She could have said no.
So in a certain sense God predicated redemption on Mary’s decision to say yes or not.

It was because of Mary’s Yes that CHrist was born and redemption occured.

[/quote]

26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31***You will be*** with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”

34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

I must be missing something. At what point in this exchange did Gabriel “ask” Mary anything? This conversation was not subject to negotiation. Gabriel never asked Mary anything. He instructed her what “will” happen.


#14

So the Holy Spirit forced himself on Mary? There’s a word for that, but I just can’t bring myself to type it. Once again, one of the chasms between Catholics and Protestants circles around whether God made human beings to be free creatures, or if God just decrees things and his robots do their thing (“obey” doesn’t fit). Grace and love demand a free response.


#15

[quote=RonWI]You’re joking, right? If not, you might want to re-read it.
[/quote]

Look at what the saints are doing in Revelation.


#16

[quote=RonWI]I must be missing something. At what point in this exchange did Gabriel “ask” Mary anything? This conversation was not subject to negotiation. Gabriel never asked Mary anything. He instructed her what “will” happen.
[/quote]

Yes you are missing the following:

38
Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”

Mary accepted the proposition. Talk about out you being out of context… The angel explained to Mary how she, who was a temple virgin, who had promised to NOT be with a man, could become pregnant. Mary was not being characterized as a simplistic girl who did not know about pregnancy.


#17

[quote=yochumjy]Yes you are missing the following:

Mary accepted the proposition. Talk about out you being out of context… The angel explained to Mary how she, who was a temple virgin, who had promised to NOT be with a man, could become pregnant. Mary was not being characterized as a simplistic girl who did not know about pregnancy.
[/quote]

Verse 38 does not answer my original question: At what point in this exchange did Gabriel “ask” Mary anything? Gabriel’s statement “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” is not a question. It is a statement of fact.


#18

DanMan wrote:

Think of it this way. God sent Gabriel to ask Mary to be the Mother of God.
She could have said no.
So in a certain sense God predicated redemption on Mary’s decision to say yes or not.

It was because of Mary’s Yes that CHrist was born and redemption occured.

I will never understand this kind of thinking. Are you saying that God was subject to the will of Mary? That if Mary had said “No,” (not that it was a question, as Ron points out, argue with the scriptures if you like) God would have had to say “Well, scrap THAT plan! Guess I can’t save mankind after all!”

With the view that the RCC has toward Mary being a co-redemptrix because she “cooperated” in God’s plan of redemption, one could argue the same way that Caiaphas, Pilate, and the Roman soldiers that crucifed Jesus likewise cooperated. Think about it. Supposing PIlate said “No! I am not going to crucify Jesus of Nazareth,” then Jesus’s dying for us on the cross would not have happened.

I guess once you start believing Mary is the “Mother of God” and “Spouse of the Holy Spirit,” etc., it is easy to go down that road thinking Mary is in some kind of position to dictate God’s will, thus depriving God of His sovereignty.


#19

[quote=chadwilliams]Mary is Co-Redemptrix in that by her cooperation in the Incarnation, God was made man and was able to redeem the world.

It doesn’t mean that Mary plays a role in our redemption.
[/quote]

She does. it’s precisely by her unique role in the economy of salvation and the redemption of Man that she is hailed as coredemptrix and mediatrix.

What “co-redemptrix” doesn’t mean is the misunderstood notion Protestants have that by calling her so we somehow ignore Christ out of the equation and that Mary herself can redeem us.

She does not redeem us objectively (i.e. it is not by Mary’s sacrifice that sin is defeated and mankind redeemed; it is still by one act and one act alone – Christ’s death on the cross of Calvary).

She does, however, “redeems” us by giving the world Christ the God-Man. Through her humility and obedience to God – through her “fiat” – the Holy Spirit resides in her and the Word Incarnate was conceived in her womb. She channels to us the greatest grace God ever gives to the world: His own begotten Son.

She stood by the foot of the Cross and presented to God her final act of obedience and witnessed the redemption of mankind by His Son’s blood. She was the “co-redemptrix.” i.e. “the woman with the Redeemer.”


#20

[quote=arcturus]DanMan wrote:I will never understand this kind of thinking. Are you saying that God was subject to the will of Mary? That if Mary had said “No,” (not that it was a question, as Ron points out, argue with the scriptures if you like) God would have had to say “Well, scrap THAT plan! Guess I can’t save mankind after all!”

With the view that the RCC has toward Mary being a co-redemptrix because she “cooperated” in God’s plan of redemption, one could argue the same way that Caiaphas, Pilate, and the Roman soldiers that crucifed Jesus likewise cooperated. Think about it. Supposing PIlate said “No! I am not going to crucify Jesus of Nazareth,” then Jesus’s dying for us on the cross would not have happened.

I guess once you start believing Mary is the “Mother of God” and “Spouse of the Holy Spirit,” etc., it is easy to go down that road thinking Mary is in some kind of position to dictate God’s will, thus depriving God of His sovereignty.
[/quote]

Man is not a robotic race. He is graced with the gift of the soul created in His image and endowed with FREE WILL.


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