Mary


#1

Hey everyone,

I’m currently a protestant, but I’ve been exploring the Catholic faith. I’m not sure where I’m at in the whole process, but my boyfriend and I (also a protestant, also exploring) have been listening to EWTN (especially Catholic Answers Live), watching some Catholic TV, and even attending Mass sometimes (when we have time).

Our question comes from an EWNT radio program we heard several weeks ago. It was a dramatization of Juan Diego’s encounter with Our Lady of Guadalupe. In our journey we’ve struggled to understand and accept the Marian doctrines of the church (and continue on some level to do so) but the words of Our Lady in this dramatization seemed to go against all of that. In the program she said things like “build me a church” and “be my messenger.” We were troubled that there was almost NO reference to Christ in her entire encounter with Juan Diego. Our understanding was that Marian doctrine - and the veneration of and respect for Mary - all pointed to Christ - that Mary doesn’t/didn’t seek any glory for herself. This program seemed to go against all of that.

Could you help us understand this better? Also, could you direct us to a better resource to learn about this story?

Thanks!


#2

First, the short answer:

By encouraging people to attend Mass, Mary brings them to Jesus, as it is Jesus who is physically present at Mass, not Mary.

That’s the “boiled down” explanation of Marian devotion. I’m sure you’ll get more elaborate explanations in the coming days.


#3

As usual, Im not completely sure, so correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think she meant build me a church as in an organization, but a building. Also Think about what Mary’s message actually is . Some things to think about.


#4

Everything our Blessed Mother does points to her son Jesus Christ. Mary is the mother of the church… we all claim her as our spiritual mother so “Build me a church” is perfectly understandable to us. She isn’t saying build a church in which to worship me…

As for “Be my messenger…” She comes to us even today to spread the message of her Son, our Lord… That is her message… So she asks Juan Diego to spread the good news of her Son, that isn’t wrong is it?

Our understanding was that Marian doctrine - and the veneration of and respect for Mary - all pointed to Christ - that Mary doesn’t/didn’t seek any glory for herself.
This is correct… everything she has done, does or ever will do always points to Christ.


#5

I have not confirmed the wording of the actual account of the story. Nevertheless, St. Paul says, and others, to go “share what we have shared with you”, in essence, to be his - Paul’s - messenger. Of course we know what - rather, WHO - this “good news” is. Other places St. Paul says things like “do as I have told you”, etc., so it’s clearly established that the Saints send out their own messengers. Since the Blessed Mother’s role is to bring all to her Son, of course she wants the “message” spread far and wide.

When you understand the the CCC teaches about Mary, you better understand the context. Her purpose is only one - lead all to her Son. When you understand what the Church teaches us about Mary, it’s understood that if Mary said to build “me” a church, we know a) she’s not attempting to bring glory to herself, b) it’s all and only about her purpose.

Hope this helps.

David


#6

Guadalupe, like Lourdes and Fatima, are private revelations. They add nothing new to the final revelation of the Father to humanity given to us by Christ. They are only helps to faith, not an end in themselves.

When Mary speaks she is speaking on behalf of her divine Son. She is his ambassador, as she was when she visited Elizabeth. The exclamation of Elizabeth to Mary tells us the Church’s position on Mary and her place in the life of the Church. She declared: “Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

Mary’s whole focus, when she lived on earth and in heaven now, is that of being Jesus’ mother and foremost disciple. Her whole desire is to bring men to him, just as she brought him to Zacharia and Elizabeth’s home. As she told the servants at Cana: “Do whatever He tells you to do.” As she stood at the foot of the cross and heard her Son declare: “Behold, your mother.”

So, be assured. In all the approved apparitions of Mary she has no other desire than to bring her Son to us and us to her Son.


#7

It also might be helpful to know that Our Lady appearing to Juan Diego is a “private revelation”, and though it is considered authentic by the Church, it is not necessary to believe it to be a Catholic.

That might just be the easy answer to avoid trying to discern the context and the actual meaning of Our Lady’s words.

Hope this helped. I’ll pray for you

God Bless


#8

**2 Cor 13 **
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.


#9

kaycee, your quotation seems to imply that you think the appearance of the virgin to Juan Diego was Satan disguising himself as an angel of light. We know this is not the case because the Church has researched the situation, and determined that it is Christ centered.

Mary rejoices in her Son and Saviour Jesus. She calls Him Lord, and one cannot do that, except by the Spirit of God. We are all called to be co-creators and co-workers of Christ, and Mary is our best example. She is perfectly enlisted with Him in His mission as mediator between God, and Man. She exists in the “great cloud of witnesses” whose prayers support all who continue to labor in his valley of tears.


#10

You are very Anti-Catholic.


#11

Amen! God’s Word is always true! :thumbsup:

At the same time, however, we can say the same thing about anything you post here as well:

**Notice regarding kaycee’s posts:

2 Cor 13
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light**

:wink:


#12

You mean 2 Cor 11:13-14. Yes?

And who is Paul talking about here? He tells us just a few of verses before:

[5] I think that I am not in the least inferior to these superlative apostles.

He was talking about other men coming to the Corinthians and preaching “another gospel”. This “other gospel” was that of the Judaizers. In short, this passage says nothing whatsoever about apparitions or locutions or other such spiritual happenings.

If Mary’s words were “another gospel” than the one preached by Paul or Jesus, the Church would never have approved of the apparitions of Guadalupe since the Church’s whole mission is to take the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth.


#13

Building the chapel gave a place to display the tilma - a place open to everyone. Missionaries had been working to preach the gospel and convert the natives, but were not having much success. After the apparition and the miraculous image on the tilma, several million converted to Christianity. The image spoke to them of Jesus, and verified the message they had heard from the missionaries.

I don’t know if the dramatization went into the meaning of the image for the people. If not, you might want to get a book on the subject. Very interesting.

Nita


#14

Here is an important statistic that gives ample evidence to the purpose God had in sending the apparition of His mother Mary to the native people of Mexico. In the ten years following the apparition, nine million native people converted to Catholic Christianity. The missionaries were originally stymied in all of their efforts to convert the native peoples. After the apparition they were performing hundreds of baptisms every day. There is no record of conversions to Christianity that rivals this at anytime in history.

This is clearly the work of God. The Father chose Mary to be the instrument to bring Jesus into the world as the “Word made flesh.” Jesus chose his mother as the instrument of salvation that brought millions of native peoples of Mexico to believe in him. The Church Mary asked to be built for her brings Jesus in the Eucharist to these same people.

I hope this helps.


#15

For such men are false apostles,Like those who purported themselves to be men of God as they created division and taught unscriptural errors as a different gospel beginning about 500 years ago?

deceitful workers,

Like some of those today attempting to portray themselves as authentic New Testament early church style believers when in fact their teachings do not align with what we know the early church says they believed. (Or the New Testament)

disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.

Slinging the term Christian around as if they are actually connected to the apostles and their teachings in some way?

14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Oh yeah… they’re slick, that’s for sure.

Obviously the fact that millions of pagans south of the border were (and continue to be) converted to Christ would be something that the devil would use his disguises to bring to pass.

Yeah, right!

As the Lord Himself said, " 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit."(Matthew 7)
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.


#16

God of power and mercy, you blessed the Americas at Tepeyac with the presence of the Virgin Mary of Guadalupe. May her prayers help all men and women to accept each other as brothers and sisters. Through your justice present in our heats, may your peace reign in the world. We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen:)


#17

Some of you have been really helpful - thanks!

I was especially helped by the posts about the image of the tilma, the statistics, and the fact that it is a private revelation and therefore not mandatory. Also, thank you to those of you who said you’d pray for us. Its a long journey and I’m not entirely sure where it is leading.

I just wanted to clarify a bit - my boyfriend and I understand that Mary always points to Christ - our confusion came when, at least in this dramatization, it didn’t seem that way for this story. We’ve come to believe many of the Catholic teachings about Mary.

We think the story might have been a simplified version for kids, which might explain the way it was put, so we’re interested in finding good versions of the story. Do you guys have any ideas?


#18

By the way, thank you for this too. I love collecting “new” (to me) prayers to use and I think this could be helpful.


#19

Gee, I thought I was just quoting scripture :eek: It does appear that much in scripture is “anti-Catholic”


#20

Kaycee-

Has God ever sent angels to deliver a message or assist his people? Did God send Moses and Elijah to speak with Jesus?

What does your Bible say?


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