Mary's Sinlessness


#1

You probably get this a lot. :cool:

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23

“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.” Luke 1:46-47

It says all have sinned, that must include Mary. Mary said God is her savior, sinners need saviors. So Mary couldn’t have been sinless?


#2

Case 1: a man felt into a pit, a rescuer came and took him out. This rescuer has saved the man’s life.

Case 2: a man was walking and when he was about to fall into a pit, a rescuer grabbed his hand and pulled him back. This prevented the man from falling. This rescuer has save the man’s life.

God has saved Mary in the similar manner.
So, don’t limit how God is as a Savior.


#3

Welcome to the forums! Yes, this topic comes up from time to time :).

There is a related thread here that might help. A lot of additional help on Mary in general and this topic in particular can be found here. Take care!


#4

You would do well to first note that Paul, in Romans 3:23, was generalizing a universal condition so as to make a point. Here it is in context:
…a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
Do you see who Paul is speaking of? Paul was talking about people who do not believe when he said they “all have sinned”. In the next verse, he says that all are “being justified”. Does that mean that everyone is justified? No, but only “all those who believe”. It is the same with verse 23; Paul was not saying that all people everywhere are sinful (otherwise it would include Jesus), but only that everyone who disbelieves is sinful.
He then ties this together as being the reason that they need to convert. Paul is trying to stir up the Romans to convert the pagans among them, because Rome was at that time a very pagan city. It would be silly for him to talk about Christians being sinful; We don’t need to convert, because we are already Christian! No, he was saying that the unbelievers are sinful, and therefore they need a savior, and therefore they need to convert.
Conclusion? Neither in this verse nor anywhere in any way did Paul ever imply or intend to imply that Mary was sinful.

Mary did indeed say that God is her savior. If you take Mary’s claim that God is her “savior” to mean that He saved her from her sins, then you’ve got even bigger problems:
He was her “savior” before Christ was even born. Apparently, if this means salvation from sins, then Mary was saved in a special way before the grace of Christ entered temporality. In other words, it would be as another poster said: Mary was saved before she fell into the pit.
But I don’t think she was using the term “savior” in that way. “God my savior” was a very common Hebrew idiom (see Psalms 43:5, Psalms 106:21, Isaiah 43:3, Isaiah 45:15, Isaiah 45:21, Hosea 13:4), and antedated the Christian teaching that we must be saved from our sins. No one in those days had the concept of needing a “savior”, because your local priest could simply atone for your sins by sacrifices. “God my savior” in those Old Testament days simply meant God provided a way out of disaster, as He did to help the Israelites escape their captors by giving them passage through the Red Sea. God was the “savior” in that sense, and that is the sense which Mary used, and in no way did it mean that God had saved her from her sins, because that concept was not even around yet.

So, no, neither of these passages gives any indication that Mary was a sinner. She was saved in a completely different, more special way than any of us. She didn’t need saved from sins she committed, but rather she needed to be saved from falling into sin at all.


#5

Apples and Oranges. The fact of the matter is if God thought it was important enough for us to believe he would have let us know through His inspired word. You cant prove it through His word so you have to make it up in tradition. I personally think that Mary was an incredible person or God would not have chose her for such an important role. I also don’t think that there was or ever will be a woman as Holy or who ever glorified God like Mary did.
Mary was fully human and therefore subject to sin, hence the need for a Savior.


#6

The answer that I have always heard to the first verse is that if it literally meant all, it would have to include Jesus our savior whom we know did not sin.

Mary did need a savior and she got one in Jesus Christ. He chose to save her** before** her birth.


#7

Yes, she is very incredible person, and she did need the Savior. We do not deny that, and as I mentioned, our Lord saved her in a very unique way.


#8

Scripture is the fruit of Tradition.

I personally think that Mary was an incredible person or God would not have chose her for such an important role. I also don’t think that there was or ever will be a woman as Holy or who ever glorified God like Mary did.

I’m sure that God will be pleased that you approve of his choice.

Mary was fully human and therefore subject to sin, hence the need for a Savior.

Jesus was also fully human. Was He therefore subject to sin? You ignore water’s caveat: don’t limit God’s Saving acts. That would be a tradition of men.


#9

Are we talking about the same Tradition that involves which 27 books belong in the New Testament? You can’t prove that the Book of Hebrews, for example, belonged in Scripture through His Word. Don’t tell me that the canonicity of Scripture is also something the Church “made up” in Tradition…GEESH…:eek:


#10

I bet that you think that the Ark of the Covenant was a pretty incredible box also!! Imagine that!! A box lined inside and out with gold. Uzzah touched it and God killed him. It carried the written word of God. Pure gold, could not be touched, and was revered immensely. Mary carries the living Word of God and she is stained with sin and is blemished inside and out. Now…

Do we have a confused God or a confused bunch of Protestants???Hmmmmmmm…wonder what my guess is?? :shrug:


#11

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. uh, I choose “b”.


#12

Hi

Quran/Islam/Muhammad also hold that Mary was sinless:

[66:13] And sets forth as an example Mary, the daughter of Imr›n, who guarded her chastity - so We breathed into him of Our Spirit -and she fulfilled the prophecy conveyed to her in the words of her Lord contained in His Books and she was one of the obedient.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=66&verse=10

Thanks


#13

If God can save Mary before her birth, why does he NOT save everyone before their birth?


#14

Seems that question can be pushed further back than that. If God can prevent the Fall, why didn’t he?


#15

It seems that you are questioning what God can and can’t do. It’s the wording of your question. “With God all things are possible.”


#16

Have you ever heard of original sin?


#17

Because not everyone carried the Word of God made flesh in their womb. See the “subtle” difference here?? :wink:


#18

And, as we all know, Mary could not have transmitted original sin to our Lord.


#19

How can you believe this made up tradition??? I haven’t seen anywhere in scripture that says "Mary was an incredible person."
And, God chose her BECAUSE she was an incredilbe person??? What kind of logic is that for a protestant??? She was honored with this role because SHE was so incredible???

hmmmmm…odd bit of logic.


#20

So, God can’t have saved Mary before her birth??? I would be very careful with the assertions you are making.

As to the second part, in a way, He did save us before our births…He died on the cross and rose again long before I was born…He made salvation POSSIBLE for me, as long as I cooperate with His saving work.


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