Mary's Virginity....


#1

I am familiar with most of the attacks on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity and how to defend Mary against them. I found a new one on CARM recently that states that Psalm 69 (verses 4-9, specifially verse 8) is a Messianic Psalm that clearly states that Mary had other children (doesn’t everything? - LOL).

Anyway, here is the link to the entire article.

carm.org/catholic/brothers.htm

Overall the article is weak, but this Psalm 69 argument has its merits and is the only significant statement I have ever seen against Mary’s perpetual Virginity.

Thanks in advance for your reply.


#2

[quote=maesoph]I am familiar with most of the attacks on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity and how to defend Mary against them. I found a new one on CARM recently that states that Psalm 69 (verses 4-9, specifially verse 8) is a Messianic Psalm that clearly states that Mary had other children (doesn’t everything? - LOL).

Anyway, here is the link to the entire article.

carm.org/catholic/brothers.htm

Overall the article is weak, but this Psalm 69 argument has its merits and is the only significant statement I have ever seen against Mary’s perpetual Virginity.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
[/quote]

I’m not a professional apologist by any means, and I could be wrong about this, so don’t take my word for it. Hopefully others out there can give you a definite answer.

That having been said, it would seem to me that they have a major problem if they want to say this is a messianic prophecy. Read verse 5:

God, You know my foolishness, and my guilty acts are not hidden from You.

If this is a messianic prophecy, than it not only prophesizes that Mary had other children. but also that Jesus sinned!

Also, remember that the usage of the word ‘sons’ is not always literal. For instance, Revelation 2:23 says, in part, “I will kill her children with the plague.” In this case, Jesus is saying he will kill her SPIRITUAL children, not her literal children. (There was actually a website a while back that used this to say that Revelation was not supposed to be in the Bible!) Remember that Catholics treat Mary as a SPIRITUAL mother.


#3

ARGH!!! I love when they come out and say that it’s either the Church OR the Bible, but, they do not coexist. :rolleyes: So, all those monks and Jerome who translated the Bible copied this JUST to contradict themselves?

Ahhhhh, now, nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm69.htm it reads, “I have become an outcast to my kin, a stranger to my mother’s children.” IF this is the case, isn’t Mary a Mother to all? Could it be interpreted that way? (Possibly, but, she wasn’t the Mother to all at that point.) The Psalmist also goes on to say,"Make their own table a snare for them, a trap for their friends. 24 Make their eyes so dim they cannot see; keep their backs ever feeble. 25 Pour out your wrath upon them; let the fury of your anger overtake them. 26 Make their camp desolate, with none to dwell in their tents. 27 For they pursued the one you struck, added to the pain of the one you wounded. 28 Add that to their crimes; let them not attain to your reward. 29 Strike them from the book of the living; do not count them among the just! " A few things strike me as this if it is a Messianic psalm, 1) Does the “please hurt them” mentality SOUND like Jesus? 2) Couldn’t Jesus Himself strike the names out of the Book? I’m not sure ALL of the psalm applies TO Jesus.

These are all my Non-Theology background opines. I haven’t studied this, so, I don’t know that I am correct, but, hey, my interpretation is just as good as anybody else’s, right? :wink:

Also, read the footnotes to the psalm in the link; they answer the questions very well. :slight_smile:


#4

[quote=maesoph]I am familiar with most of the attacks on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity and how to defend Mary against them. I found a new one on CARM recently that states that Psalm 69 (verses 4-9, specifially verse 8) is a Messianic Psalm that clearly states that Mary had other children (doesn’t everything? - LOL).

Anyway, here is the link to the entire article.

carm.org/catholic/brothers.htm

Overall the article is weak, but this Psalm 69 argument has its merits and is the only significant statement I have ever seen against Mary’s perpetual Virginity.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
[/quote]

I’m not a bible scholar either, but Psalm 69:4-9 can’t possibly be a Messianic Psalm espicially with this verse stuck right in the middle of it:

Psa 69:5*** (69:6)[size=2] O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my offences are not hidden from thee:[/size]***


And this would be Jesus??? I don’t think so…


#5

This just shows how far Protestants will go. Only God really knows, but I’d say they HAVE to be using that purposefully and knowingly wrongly. These are professional Bible folk here, I can’t imagine they don’t realize that they are saying Christ sinned.

They are also doing a HUGE disservice to Christianity of every sort. Think about this: their website is devoted to answering objections to Christianity, and basically proving it is real. They answer a whole bunch of topics on there, from very popular basic objections (why is there evil) to very specific Bible “contradictions.” Think what happens if some Jewish anti-missionary or some skeptic sees this article. They can point out that CARM is either A) dishonestly using a Bible passage (as they seem to be doing) or B) teaching that Jesus sinned. That one “mistake” can be used to argue that EVERYTHING on the site is wrong, destroying the faith of a whole load of people, and also making sure many others never join.


#6

[quote=Lazerlike42]This just shows how far Protestants will go. Only God really knows, but I’d say they HAVE to be using that purposefully and knowingly wrongly.
[/quote]

It’s called proof-texting. They believe every numbered verse exists in a vacuum so they come up with a doctrine and find a verse that supports it (the text that proves it, allegedly) even if the very next verse refutes their position.


#7

Does our word song come fron the word psalm? Check out the early songs sung by christians at new advent dot org. Some adjectives used for Mary are immaculate and undefiled.
st julie


#8

Thanks everyone!!! I caught the reference that everyone pointed out below:

Psa 69:5 (69:6)[size=2] O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my offences are not hidden from thee:[/size]


I suspected this would refute it…


#9

The psalm, which depicts the suffering of the innocent just person vividly, is cited often by the New Testament especially in the passion accounts.

The psalm prays not so much for personal vengeance as for public vindication of God’s justice. There was, at this time, no belief in an afterlife where such vindication could take place. Redress had to take place now, in the sight of all.

This is from the USCCB’s NAB notes.

NotWorthy


#10

The psalm, which depicts the suffering of the innocent just person vividly, is cited often by the New Testament especially in the passion accounts.

The psalm prays not so much for personal vengeance as for public vindication of God’s justice. There was, at this time, no belief in an afterlife where such vindication could take place. Redress had to take place now, in the sight of all.

This is from the USCCB’s NAB notes.

My Douay-Rheims footnotes say this, 6 “My foolishness and my offences”… which my enemies impute to me: or the follies and sins of men, which I have taken upon myself. "

Now, being “an alien to the sons of my mother” may forshadow how the apostles (except for St. John) seemed to disappear during the Passion including St. Peter’s denial (Mary, of course, being the mother of the Church).


#11

For starters, I have come to believe that CARM will do :rolleyes: anything to try to prove a point.
What they are doing here, is not just taking the verse out of context; they are using it in a way that is insulting to the Lord Jesus Christ in the process.
I keep saying this, but I can’t help it:
The 3 rules of Bible interpretation are
[list=1]
*]Context.
*]Context.
*]And, of course, context.
[/list]CARM clearly is unacquainted with this :rolleyes: arcane &:rolleyes: difficult to remember & understand principle…


#12

[quote=Zooey]For starters, I have come to believe that CARM will do :rolleyes: anything to try to prove a point.
What they are doing here, is not just taking the verse out of context; they are using it in a way that is insulting to the Lord Jesus Christ in the process.
I keep saying this, but I can’t help it:
The 3 rules of Bible interpretation are

[list=1]
*]Context.
*]Context.
*]And, of course, context.
[/list]CARM clearly is unacquainted with this :rolleyes: arcane &:rolleyes: difficult to remember & understand principle…
[/quote]

Um, you forget to mention “Context”!:slight_smile:


#13

[quote=NotWorthy]Um, you forget to mention “Context”!:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Oops! The **4 **points to proper Bible interpretation…


#14

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