Mass around the world

Greetings CAF friends! I will be traveling in Germany next month, and will be spending 2 days in Cologne. I plan to see the great Cathedral there and possibly attend a Mass (they are offered throughout the day). Assuming the Mass will be in German and knowing my German is pathetic, I am curious to know if the form of the Mass is the same globally? If this strikes you as a ridiculous question, my apologies!

The mass is generally the same though posture after the Agnus Dei may be different - in some places they remain standing.

Germany in my opinion executes mass better than any other country. You will notice that the Germans sing with gusto beautiful and reverent hymns. So different from the norm in the US. The Cathedral will likely provide an English translation.

Once upon a time, the Mass was the same, the exact same, even said in the same language, throughout the world. Sigh.

I know that it hurts that was always in Latin, but I think with it being in a persons native tongue it allows us to defend our faith better. Yes, ppl will get offended and hurt about it, but it was a good thing that it did change.

  1. The Faith was successfully defended for millennia with the Mass in Latin

  2. The Mass isn’t an opportunity to learn about the Faith, it is worship of God, which is the ultimate end of human life, thus it cannot be subordinated to any other end.

We still do that in English or Spanish or Portuguese or German or French. The worship of god is still the same. Yes, you say the faith was successfully defended but how many of those individuals who were catholic really knew the faith. They went to church, confessed, received holy communion, yes they were involved, but how many like today were able to defend their faith from Protestants.

I have seen Latin mass, yes it’s beautiful, but at the same time, people need to understand what is going on.

How many people today can defend the Faith purely from attending Mass? How many people today even believe the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ? (less than 1/3, btw). How do you account for the vast increase in conversions away from the Church by Catholics into Protestant communities after the language change? If Catholics are so much more equipped to deal with attacks on the Faith we’d expect to see the opposite. (n.b former Catholics make up the second largest group of Christians in the USA).

People understood what was going on better before the translation. They understood that the priest was offering the Body of Christ to the Father in the Spirit for the forgiveness of our sins. Most people don’t understand that anymore. How many think the Mass is just a meal? Or is about expressing ourselves in community? Just b/c we can understand more of the words of the Mass, doesn’t mean we understand the Mass better than our ancestors.

b/c less ppl believe that the Eucharist is the actual blood and body has nothing to do with the change of mass format. It has to do with ppl not trusting the faith that was handed down to us. They can simply look at John 6 and see that Jesus was talking straight forward. But in no way shape or form did the disbelief begin when the mass when to native tongues.

I would beg to differ, ppl are better equipped, if it were not the case, then we wouldn’t have exodus from protestant churches to the catholic churches, i.e, Scott Hahn, Tim Staples Michael Cumbie, that is just In the USA. Theirs quite more around the world.

Yes, there are converts coming into the Faith (Deo Gratias), but none of those mentioned became Catholic solely b/c they attended English language Masses. They did so b/c they realized the Truth of the Church through extensive study and debate - OUTSIDE of Mass. There also is an exodus, even greater in number, of Catholics out of the Church - Catholics whose entire religious education, post 8th grade, is the Mass. If the Mass was equipping them to be apologists, it’s doing a bad job.

Of course the decline in belief in the Eucharist is a result of the changes to the Mass, lex orandi lex credendi (how we pray, is what we believe). Protestants also can look at John 6 and they find all kinds of reasons to not believe in the Eucharist. The Bible doesn’t interpret itself, after all - that’s why Christ instituted the Church.

Look at what you said about why Protestants come in, bc they see the truth. Those who leave do it out of ignorance. Ppl need to understand that Christ instituted the Eucharist and mass not for entertainment but for salvation. All these ppl say that the Holy Spirit is talking to them and telling to start their own Church, but if that’s the case Jesus contradicted himself when he said he wanted us to be 1. Jesus even had ppl walk out on him, once again John 6 tells us that, they didn’t believe what he said. So if Jesus had this happen, then us as humans would suffer even more.

I agree with all of this, but none of it supports the translation of the Mass into the vernacular nor does it show that the vernacular Mass is equipping Catholics for apologetics.

The reason why I say its good that the mass changed bc ppl who are not Catholic, I have heard this would say, well they spoke in another language they were saying bad things, or they weren’t reading from the bible. Look at the end off the day you can go to 24 hours of mass, one after another after another, but just go to go. You have to understand that if ppl don’t understand that the Eucharist is not the real body and blood of Christ that’s for them to have to deal with God.

Having said that when you go to mass, and you hear a reading from the Old Testament, a Psalm, a reading from the NT and then the Gospel, you can as a profound person go home and study what was read, and not be intimidated by outside forces. look, as Catholics we still have a lot of work to do, we have to understand 2 things, 1) Jesus said that he will always be with us and the gates of hell will never prevail against his church, and 2) the Catholic Church was who put the Bible together, so theirs no reason at all that we should lose any battle.

I understand your point about the mass and how it used to be Latin. I understand that that’s how it was done for almost 1900 yrs, I understand that and have no problem with it. I’m just saying that if Mass being in a person’s native tongue can help a person understand the faith, either a Catholic or a non Catholic then we have accomplished something

The mass is generally the same though posture after the Agnus Dei may be different - in some places they remain standing.

Germany in my opinion executes mass better than any other country. You will notice that the Germans sing with gusto beautiful and reverent hymns. So different from the norm in the US. The Cathedral will likely provide an English translation.

Thank you very much - I hadn’t thought about whether there might be a translation available, I was just concerned that I not cause offense by sitting at the wrong times :blush:

Even if I can’t understand the homily, God’s Word is always good for my soul.

You’ll be fine. I have been to mass in Berlin. I don’t know any German, and it was easy enough to follow.

I would recommend bringing along an little English Missal to help you follow the readings for the days you will be there. When I attend Mass in a different language, I still use the English responses, although I try to follow along in their language. The great thing is that despite language, it still conveys the same meaning. To use the phrase, “We are many parts, but we are all one body of Christ.” :thumbsup:

Sorry, not exactly true. At least 5% of the Catholic Church, the Eastern Catholics, did not use Latin in their mass and their mass is every bit as valid as the Latin mass.

Even within the Western Catholic Church, not all subscribed to the Tridentine mass. Milan for instance, has used their own Ambrosian rite, dating back to 4th-century St Ambrose.

So, the Tridentine Catholic world was never as monolithic as some romantics made it out to be!!

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