Matthew 19:14.

Is this verse proof that double predestination that all/most/some protestants believe in is obviously wrong or does it have a different meaning?

Matthew19:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

What is meant by “predestinaton” in Catholic terms, is that God knows our choices in advance. While He wishes all to go to Heaven, He allows for our freewill.

*II. CHRIST’S REDEMPTIVE DEATH IN GOD’S PLAN OF SALVATION

“Jesus handed over according to the definite plan of God”

599 Jesus’ violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God’s plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."393 This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.394

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396’*

I personally believe that ‘permit’ is the wrong word. God does not permit evil. And any act that is evil cannot be permitted by God. Rather people’s freewill is allowed for, that we can choose God, yet evil choices, are not ‘permitted’. I find that word in this context very problematic. If evil were permitted, then people wouldn’t end up in Hell.

But what do you mean by “double-predestination”?

The passage certainly does seem to suggest that people can fall away, generally.

Regarding the passage, a reasonable response at bottom of page:

biblehub.com/matthew/18-14.htm

‘18:7-14 Considering the cunning and malice of Satan, and the weakness and depravity of men’s hearts, it is not possible but that there should be offences. God permits…(again that word 'permit)…them for wise and holy ends, that those who are sincere, and those who are not, may be made known. Being told before, that there will be seducers, tempters, persecutors, and bad examples, let us stand on our guard. We must, as far as lawfully we may, part with what we cannot keep without being entangled by it in sin. The outward occasions of sin must be avoided. If we live after the flesh, we must die. If we, through the Spirit, mortify the deeds of the body, we shall live. Christ came into the world to save souls, and he will reckon severely with those who hinder the progress of others who are setting their faces heavenward. And shall any of us refuse attention to those whom the Son of God came to seek and to save? A father takes care of all his children, but is particularly tender of the little ones.’

  • You could make the argument that because people are warned against leading the little ones away from the faith, that it is then a fact, that they can be led away from the faith.

  • You could similarly make the argument that if it is God’s Will that the little ones should not be led away from the faith, then they won’t be; consequently, there can be attempts by people to do so, and therefore, would be bad for them, not the little ones. And in this example, who are the little ones? This argument, might point to a few references, that speak of signs of predestination for some (the ‘little ones’); IOW, signs for some of those whom God knows will make it to Heaven.

Double predestination means that God predestines some souls to heaven and some to hell from eternity. And no matter what they do, they can’t change their fate.

Yes, this is proof against double predestination, since Jesus did not say that the Father wills that some of these children should perish.

It is the will of the Father that we all return to heaven but the will of man can interfere with God’s plan.

Hi, Nelka!

…I think that the wording has been changed on this particular version of the Bible… the understanding of St. Matthew 19:14 is that Heaven is composed of those who, as young children, trust in God’s Word and Will–they have thirst for knowledge, they seek understanding and they trust those in Authority.

…yet, there are many other Biblical passages that debunk predestination, double or otherwise, where it is implied that God “predestines” some to Salvation and others to damnation.

Maran atha!

Angel

catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/predestined-for-freedom

*'For Catholics, when God “establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace” (CCC 600). Thus, anyone who is finally saved will have been predestined by God because it was God’s predestined plan and God’s grace that went before him and enabled him to be saved.

However, this does not mean that God has predestined anyone for hell. Indeed, the Bible cannot be any plainer than to say God is, “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pt 3:9). God wills all to be saved. To be damned, a person must willfully reject God’s “predestined plan” for his salvation (cf. CCC 2037): simple enough.’*

‘Double-predestination’ as opposed to ‘predestination’ can however be refuted in Scripture, once such example, being where St. Paul tells us that God wishes all men to be saved.

Hi!

…yet, in that sense there’s no predestination of a few over the rest; rather, God’s Salvific Plan predestines all to Salvation (St. John 3:14-21 & Ezekiel 18); the fact remains that man’s freewill allows him to choose Life (Deuteronomy 30:19) or death.

The fact that God is Omnipresent and thus Knows and Exists in an Eternal Now (man’s perspective of past, present, and future is Experienced by God as NOW) He actually Knows *who *is Saved–not that He whimsically predestines some to be Saved.

Maran atha!

Angel

Actually, predestination does not imply “from all time”. As is clear from the episode of Pharoa and others who have tested God’s patience, predestination occurs at the time that the individual has committed the “last straw” which breaks the camel’s back, as the saying goes.

In other words, a person who has proven, by his actions, that he wants nothing to do with God, is predestined to destruction at the point that he exceeds his limit of opportunities for salvation:

Exodus 9:11 Because of the boils the magicians could not stand in Moses’ presence, for there were boils on the magicians as well as on the rest of the Egyptians. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, 12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.

This is the point at which one is “predestined” to destruction. Others are predestined to salvation when they continue in well doing:

Romans 2:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,

This, predestination, may occur during one’s lifetime.

2 Timothy 4:8
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance.

God wills that all will be saved. But that does not mean that God predestines all to be saved. If it did, then that would mean that God is not omnipotent, since many are not saved. Example: Pharao

One such actual example of predestination, in terms of the individual sense, as opposed to the general sense of everyone is predestined to be saved (in the examples), would be The Immaculate Conception. It has been understood though, that because He is the Omnipotent, Eternal Presence, He knew, before Mary’s existence, that she would say “yes”, later on in life; so her Immaculate Conception was preparatory, for her forthcoming, “yes”.

So it goes like this (so far):

  • Scripture says all are willed to be saved, except by our own participation can we not be; meaning, all are predestined, but not all comply.

  • Argument: well then the word ‘predestined’ loses any real meaning.

  • Then the counter: if some have not participated in the saving action of God, then despite having been predestined, are not in fact ‘predestined’, because of that reason.

…second to that last counter, we have the Immaculate Conception example, which shows, that because God knows our choices in advance of us having made them, we can say that some are ‘predestined’.

Hi, De Maria!

…I think we are treading the same water–just missing each other by seconds and degrees.

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi!

…yet, not once in Scriptures do we find God saying: ‘some are predestined to Salvation (or otherwise).’

…that take is man’s own construct! :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Maran atha!

Angel

My point.

  • Then the counter: if some have not participated in the saving action of God, then despite having been predestined, are not in fact ‘predestined’, because of that reason.

Again, my point.

…second to that last counter, we have the Immaculate Conception example, which shows, that because God knows our choices in advance of us having made them, we can say that some are ‘predestined’.

Did Mary have free will? Yes or no. If she had free will, she was not yet predestined. There remains the possibility that she may have said, “no”. If there was not such possibility, then she did not have free will.

She participated in the saving action of God, of her own free will. After that, she was predestined by God to be saved. He locked her in, because it would not be meet and right for the Mother of His Son to be condemned to hell.

Yep. I think we’re tracking very closely. Good to hear from you!

De Maria

So, we have ‘predestination’ as a general term, to mean that all are predestined, only, and only, in accordance with our participation, which God knows in advance; therefore, when we speak of predestination, what this actually determines, is that there are signs, that some people seem to be certain of going to Heaven, amongst the rest, whose souls may or may not be in such a holy state. Despite that God desires for all to be saved. This sounds like a very scenic way of saying exactly what the Catechism says.

In terms of Mary, she had freewill, but her Immaculate Conception meant she could commit no sin. This was before the ‘fiat’. So what you are putting forward, is that God responded to her “yes”, by then granting her, her Immaculate Conception, in light of this forthcoming “yes”, taking the possibility of sin and going to Hell, away - predestination. Although, all of this happens at the beginning, with God knowing all eventualities, in one moment. And this could be possible because God does know all eventualities to be.

  • the only problem I have with this configuration, is that to have gotten to the point for Mary to have been pure enough for God’s Angel to ask her to be the Mother of God, she would had to have been pure, in the first place, for this to happen, in any eventuality. So the nuance here is that freewill does not include a choice to sin. Not in God because God is holy. Predestination is God wanting all to be saved, with some being more certain than others, of this happening (due to Original Sin). Sin gets in the way but is not directly related to the general term, meaning predestination, because God Willed humanity before the Fall. Our Lady was sinless from Conception, any way we look at it, yet still had freewill, but the kind of freewill that is really FREE-will. The will to choose with a pure heart. The ability to choose between natural and good choices without the evil and tainted temptations and distortions. These are not really choices but mistakes. Who can really say, in simple terms, if we all knew everything: I choose to go to Hell. No. No one would say this. So it is not really a choice, is it. It is a temptation. A distortion, a perversion of Truth. Therefore, although Mary’s Immaculate Conception was granted to her, in view of her “fiat”, to be the Mother of God, saved by Christ’s forthcoming Resurrection, she was predestined in a unique way, in light of the fact that she was to be the Mother of God, because she would say “yes”, although she had a choice to say “no” out of fear (not sin); and because God knew that as a sinless person, she would serve her Son faithfully to the Cross, without putting her Son’s physical safety before His Mission; choosing the best options out of the good ones she considered. This gift of Divine Motherhood, which the Church uses to describe her Motherly Gift (Pope Francis has also used this term, because it is a gift) does not negate freewill in any way. Her sufferings in a state of purity were more than what we suffer having to fight sin - relative to her state in life as the Mother of the Crucified King (the sword that pierced her heart). The link between Mary and us, is Christ’s Resurrection. Simply put, that if God did not come to save us, then we would not have required an Immaculately Conceived Mother. So, Our Lady was predestined to be saved, from Conception, in light of her role as the Mother of God, in the Mind of God, from the Beginning.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p2.htm

*'II. . . .BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY

487 What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.

Mary’s predestination

488 “God sent forth his Son”, but to prepare a body for him,125 he wanted the free co-operation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, “a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary”:126

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.127

489 Throughout the Old Covenant the mission of many holy women prepared for that of Mary. At the very beginning there was Eve; despite her disobedience, she receives the promise of a posterity that will be victorious over the evil one, as well as the promise that she will be the mother of all the living.128 By virtue of this promise, Sarah conceives a son in spite of her old age.129 Against all human expectation God chooses those who were considered powerless and weak to show forth his faithfulness to his promises: Hannah, the mother of Samuel; Deborah; Ruth; Judith and Esther; and many other women.130 **Mary “stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from him. After a long period of waiting the times are fulfilled in her, the exalted Daughter of Sion, and the new plan of salvation is established.”**131

The Immaculate Conception

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”.133** In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.**

**491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. **That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136

The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.’*

“Aquinas held that God is able to be provident because He completely transcends time. In the eternal presence of pure actuality, God knows all creatures that He chooses to exist in time, and God knows the providential ordering whereby He directs them toward their end or goal. Hence the causality of God, who is the first agent, extends to all being. In Aquinas’ view, God’s love is causal, as His love for the beings He creates consists in His will to communicate His own good to others as far as possible (Levering, Predestination, 76). In this way God directly wills the salvation of the elect, who choose to receive God’s love through the means of grace at their disposal. Aquinas thus maintained that God predestines a person to salvation by arranging whatever states of affairs help that person to freely reach salvation (Allison, Historical Theology, 461). That certain creatures are non-elect is solely due to the creatures themselves, who voluntarily cause their own salvific failure by choosing not to believe in Christ and participate in the sacramental life of the church. Aquinas also continued Augustine’s doctrine that God through grace was able to move the human will to good—not by overcoming the freedom of the human will, but by making it free to choose Him. As Matthew Levering points out, for Aquinas, “God’s transcendent causality makes possible, rather than impairs, the freedom of created causality” (Levering, Predestination, 78). So God permits the damnation of the non-elect without willing or being morally responsible for it.”

MacGregor, K. R. (2016). Predestination. In J. D. Barry, D. Bomar, D. R. Brown, R. Klippenstein, D. Mangum, C. Sinclair Wolcott, … W. Widder (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

all true. But, does any of that say that God forced Mary to give her “fiat”?

Read this and apply it in her case:

*Luke 7:36-50New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

36 A Pharisee invited him to dine with him, and he entered the Pharisee’s house and reclined at table.[a] 37 Now there was a sinful woman in the city who learned that he was at table in the house of the Pharisee. Bringing an alabaster flask of ointment, 38 she stood behind him at his feet weeping and began to bathe his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them, and anointed them with the ointment. 39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, that she is a sinner.” 40 Jesus said to him in reply, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” “Tell me, teacher,” he said. 41 “Two people were in debt to a certain creditor; one owed five hundred days’ wages** and the other owed fifty. 42 Since they were unable to repay the debt, he forgave it for both. Which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon said in reply, “The one, I suppose, whose larger debt was forgiven.” He said to him, “You have judged rightly.” 44 Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give me water for my feet, but she has bathed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but she has not ceased kissing my feet since the time I entered. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she anointed my feet with ointment. 47 So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love.[c] But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.” 48 He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 The others at table said to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50 But he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”***

Now, Mary is sinless, but she was lavished with gifts of grace. Who loves God more, she who is lavished with grace or she who is not?

Mary loves God freely.

To say, also, that you’ve left out very important parts of #15 and taken only a snippet, and then followed with a supposition - that to be prepared, is to not be free?!:shrug:

If you read the whole of post #15, you will see that being prepared, “full of grace”, makes one truly free, and able to love God, more, not less. I think the issue here, is the over-emphasis on the subject of sin. Sin takes away our choices, not adds to them. Sin is an obstacle to our spiritual progression. Our Lady had no sin and therefore was able to make good choices.

This does not mean that Mary could not weigh up danger, during her “fiat”; yet, you will read, the element that seemingly caused the main obstacle for her, was the knowledge that she could give birth whilst remaining a Virgin: “But how can this come about, since I am a Virgin?”. The danger, could have been that she had so much humility, maybe she would have thought herself unworthy! But instead, she answered confidently, in trustful obedience: perfect humility.

To say that, being prepared with grace for a question-to-happen at some point in time, somehow neglects freewill, is judging the concept of freewill from an erroneous starting point.

To come back to this topic. First, sorry, I called you “Mary”. I mistakenly went by the username.

To avoid further confusion: God ‘desires’ for us all to be saved (if God ‘Willed’ that we should all be saved, then we all would be). God WILLED that all ‘could’ be saved. God willed that those who belong to Him are saved, but that highlights predestination as true, being that those who choose Him are the ones who belong to Him and know His name.

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