Mediatrix with Jesus


#1

Jesus became man so that we might be reconciled with God. He is the Mediator between man and God. We are able to reach God because Jesus is man and God. Why then, do we need a mediatrix between us and Jesus?

“Jesus is the only Mediator to the Father, the Immaculata, the only Mediatrix to Jesus.” - St. Maximilian Kolbe


#2

The first thing that comes to my mind is the wedding feast at Cana.


#3

What about it? Couldn’t the people there have talked directly to Jesus to get what they needed? Further, where does it say anyone actually walked up to Mary and said “Hey, go tell Jesus we’re out of wine?” As far as any of us knows, she simply accessed the situation and decided to do something about it.

Furthermore, even if she was responding to a request made to her, that is a far cry from saying that she is a necessary mediatrix, that we must go through her to reach Jesus.

“We must go the way of surrender to the Immaculata, and that most perfectly. Then we act most effectively because the Immaculata will act through us.” -St. Maximilian Kolbe

"Secondly, we must conclude that, being necessary to God by a necessity which is called “hypothetical”, (that is, because God so willed it), the Blessed Virgin is all the more necessary for men to attain their final end. Consequently we must not place devotion to her on the same level as devotion to the other saints as if it were merely something optional…

I could tell many stories in evidence of what I have just said.

One is recorded in the chronicles of St. Francis. The saint saw in ecstasy an immense ladder reaching to heaven, at the top of which stood the Blessed Virgin. This is the ladder, he was told, by which we must all go to heaven." - St. Louis de Montfort


#4

Well, that event showed that the Mother of God could intercede even without being asked. That event also proved that Jesus could not refuse the pleading of his mother even if his “hour is not yet come”.


#5

First, it is important to remember that a person is a saint not because he was right about everything, but because he lived a life of heroic virtue. I’m afraid St. Maximilian misspoke here.

I don’t agree that Mary is the only Mediatrix to Jesus. We are all commanded to make intercession for others (Matt 5:44; 1 Tim 2:1-6) and therefore we are all co-mediators with Christ. We must be diligent in praying for others who need our prayers.

Aren’t you a co-mediator with Jesus? I am.

God love you,
Paul


#6

A co-mediator with Jesus? No. Jesus mediates man and God. Only He could do that.

I am only in a mediator in the sense that I can take someone to Jesus. Certainly, Mary was a mediatrix in this sense, for she bore Jesus to the world. But where I have a problem is when I read in the writings of folks like St. Max and St. Louis de Montfort that devotion to Mary is necessary to loving Jesus, and that we really can’t love Jesus without a Marian devotion.


#7

Yes, that bothers me too. I think people can get overly enthusiastic about some aspect of their religious life until it becomes distorted. I know a woman who believes that only through music can someone really get close to God. :shrug:


#8

Mary as Mediatrix Proved From Scripture

The Catholic Church recognizes Mary’s role in salvation history and invokes her under the title of Mediatrix. However, many people struggle to understand how Mary can have this role which they reserve for Christ alone, and they cite the following verse in support of their position:

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Is this the complete picture of what the Bible has to say about the role of mediator? Let’s take a closer look at some verses which provide a bigger perspective on this important topic.

Hebrews 7:24-25
because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Here we see that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for “those who come to God through him.” The role of the mediator and the intercessor are synonymous; a mediator lives to intercede for others.

All Christians are called to be mediators or intercessors for one another because we are all members of Christ’s body as we see from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:22-23
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Paul referred to himself as a co-laborer with Christ when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers.

Paul went further in his understanding of our responsibility as co-laborers with Christ when when he wrote:

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Is anything lacking from the perfect sacrifice that Christ offered upon the Cross? Paul clearly indicates that more is to be done and that he makes up what is “still lacking” in his own flesh.

2 Corinthians 1:6
If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation

Additionally, we know that we are called to share in the priesthood of all believers (cf. 1 Peter 2:5-9), and a priest, by definition, is called to be a mediator between God and men. Each of us is called to this role and to be a mediator or mediatrix for others before God.

Therefore, if we are all called to this role of mediator and intercessor for one another, how much more can this be said of Mary who said, “Yes” to God and brought Christ into the world?

Speaking of this, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus) of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”


969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”


970 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.” “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”


#9

Why did Jesus have to die on the cross to save us instead of just popping down and telling us “you are saved”?

Why did Jesus have to give the keys to loose and bind to Peter and not Judas or some other apostle?

Perhaps God has His ways and has His own reasons.

If Jesus is the new Adam and Mary is the new Eve then it makes sense we need a father and mother yes?

Who does the child normally run to when they are in trouble with Dad?

Answer: Mom… :wink:

All Grace flows through Jesus and are won by His merits. Who are we to say who He should permit to have strong influence over directing grace?

There is no biblical contradiction with anything in Catholic doctrine, dogma and The Bible.

James


#10

We don’t :slight_smile:

The idea rests on the assumption (no pun intended) that
[LIST]
]we cannot come to Christ without the prayers of the BVM
]Mary asks her Son to be good to us without His having first moved her to ask this[/LIST]The second idea is back-to-front entirely. She cannot pray at all, just as we cannot, unless He moves her to. His action on our behalf comes before hers, in every way; for
He loves us far more than she could possibly begin to - there is no comparison between them :slight_smile: We don’t need Mary - not at all, not in the slightest. Nor does God - He needs nothing :slight_smile: - creation is the expression, not of Divine neediness & poverty,
but** of overflowing, infinite, changeless Divine Love & Omnipotence. This is no disrepect to her, for it is God Whom we do need, God Who gives her to us. To spell things out a bit:

A Divine purpose in which Mary does not exist at all is not a contradiction in terms - but the Divine purpose is in point of fact a Mary-including one, which includes her in a particular way. Her vocation to be mother of the Messiah is a grace - God owed nothing to her, not even existence - but His Love has made her everything she is. “Everything” means “everything”.

The notion that we come to Mary (only ?) through Jesus is dodgy because it replaces Christ with a mere creature. If it does not put her in His place, that is never made clear :(. The “structure” of our access to God & our life in Him is with - few exceptions - Trinitarian; so that we go:
[LIST]
*]To the Father
*]Through the Son
*]In the Spirit[/LIST][LIST]
*]Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ.
*]Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility,
*]Eph 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
*]Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end.
*]Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near;
*]Eph 2:18 for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.[/LIST]Unity is strongly emphasised. And it is God Who grants it. And the BVM is not God - so she cannot have the place in our approach to, & comunion with, the Triune God that is implied. She can pray for us - but not take the place of any of the Divine Persons.

The gospel of St. John gives us a sketch of a living in Christ which is Trinitarian: The Father, Son, & the Spirit indwell the believer, & the believer dwells in them

And:
[LIST]
*]1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
*]1Pe 1:2 chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.[/LIST]To bestow & multiply grace and peace, to choose, to sanctify, to make obedient to Christ, to sprinkle with His Blood; these are Trinitarian work - Mary is a member of the Church, not a Divine Person. These verses show the favour & love of the Blessed Trinity to us - God’s favour is not based on the actions of creatures, but on His Love which is before all creatures & all creation. And this love is shown by Christ in His intercession for His People:
[LIST]
*]Hebrews 7:21 Those who formerly became priests took their office without an oath, but this one was addressed with an oath, “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘Thou art a priest for ever.’”
*]Hbr 7:22 This makes Jesus the surety of a better covenant.
*]Hbr 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office;
*]Hbr 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever.
*]Hbr 7:25 Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
*]Hbr 7:26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens.
*]Hbr 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself.[/LIST]As High Priest, Jesus has no helpers, & needs none. His priesthood is altogether perfect. All that the BVM,or any other creature, can or could do or be, is left “in the shade” by Him, for His Person, Sacrifice, Intercession, Mediation, Priesthood, Covenant leave nothing to be desired. :smiley:

The outline:
[LIST]
*]To Jesus
*]Through Mary[/LIST]is seriously defective :frowning: - it distorts the teaching of St. Paul, & so it misrepresents the relation between the Christian & the Triune God & the revelation of God which the NT records. That cannot be good for Catholic doctrine & theology, so it cannot be good for Catholic devotion. And it is no honour to misrepresent the BVM’s place in our salvation - how do we honour her, by giving her a place higher than she is able to fill ? To do so is not love of her, because it is an untruth :frowning:

Matters are not helped by the related (?) error that Jesus Christ rules a kingdom of Justice, wheras Mary rules a Kingdom of Mercy. This suggests a completely unreal Christ, a Christ full of anger, who can be restrained from smiting us only by His mother. ISTM that one error, if not corrected, goes on to produce others, & those in turn others. :frowning: Devotion to her is a great gift - but devotion to her which requires a sickly doctrine of God, of our union with God, of the offices of Christ as Prophet & Priest & King, is in deep trouble.

…more]


#11

…finished]

ISTM that - as another site says - the activity of the Saints & of the entire Mystical Body in heaven & earth should be understood as, all of it, the activity of Christ - see:
[LIST]
*]scborromeo.org/papers.htm - in particular:
*]scborromeo.org/papers/mediator.PDF - which has the title One Mediation of Christ and the Saints[/LIST]That is far better & truer than the idea that has the Saints acting independently of Christ; as making Mary into the rival of her Saviour-God does.

There are many ways of expressing the Mystery of Christ - what is not healthy, is not that the Saints are honoured, but that any of them should be given a place which violates any of the NT patterns or model or structures used to express the Mystery. Heb. 7.25 is striking - it is not Trinitarian, & the structure of access is:
[LIST]
*]to God
*]through Him (= Jesus)[/LIST]No creature, not the angels, not even Melchizedek, is given any place in how believers “draw near”. This is no wonder, for the letter has spent a lot of time outlining the excellence of Christ above the angels as God with God, His being Eternal, Creator, & Son of God (Heb. 1); His fellow-feeling & common orign with believers (2 & 4); & the Eternity of His Priesthood & Covenant. The letter gives us an all-sufficient Christ, a Christ who is an infinitely sufficient Saviour & Lord & God. It exhausts all the needs that prompt us go to the Saints, so if we are to go to them, it cannot be because they can give us anything that He cannot or will not. So we must have a different foundation for troubling with them - & that foundation, is Christ Himself; for only He is sufficient for them & for us. Instead of receiving from Him through them, we receive from them because He works them - they are in Him, as are we.

St. John - like 2 Peter (1.4) - could be seen as a basis for the idea of access through Mary, since she is indwelt by the Blessed Trinity & is in them; except that all Christ’s people are. As St. Paul says, we are “members of one another”.

The NT provides a wide variety of emphases, ideas, theologies, & articulations of the Mystery of Christ, and spells out what some of them mean. And none of them allow Kolbe’s doctrine. Water does not burn - so people need no great knowledge of rivers to know that a a river credited with burning up anyone in it, is unlikely to a be a river in any obvious or conventional sense. Whatever else water may be or do, it won’t set us alight. Whatever else the NT witness to Christ may say, or allow for, it doesn’t allow for a salvation which is as totally Marian as Kolbe’s idea require; any more than it allows for salvation by Martians. :slight_smile: That the NT does not address a post-Biblical topic, does not mean that the Christian faith it records can allow anything under the sun, & that consequently anything whatever can be a legitimate Christian idea or practice. Dodgy Marian ideas & dodgy moral ideas come from very different groups, but they both lean heavily on the “argument from silence”.

Any use to you ?


#12

Read the NT and find out.

Why did Jesus have to give the keys to loose and bind to Peter and not Judas or some other apostle?

God “chooses” (so to speak) according to His Sovereign Will and good pleasure. All His ways are good, because they are His. No further reason is needed. In no way does this imply that God is wilful, acts on a whim, is capricious - these are impurities we import into considering His ways from our knowledge that man often is wilful, acts on a whim, is capricious; but God is Wholly Good, is God; He is not man. Men may be tyrannical & cruel - but never God. His ways are unsearchable, paradoxical, past finding out - but they cannot be unrighteous or foolish. :slight_smile:

Perhaps God has His ways and has His own reasons.

If Jesus is the new Adam and Mary is the new Eve then it makes sense we need a father and mother yes?

The Father of Jesus is the father of Christians - that is why Christians are called “fellow-heirs with Christ”; they, we, share by grace in the Sonship which is proper by Nature to the Son, the God-man Jesus Christ. This Sonship is eternal - it is not derived from the Incarnation. On the contrary - He Who is the Eternal Son of God humbled Himself to become what He was not: a human son as well. The Unity of His Person unites these two sonships, wholly unlike as they are - which is why it is possible to say: “One of the Trinity suffered”, but not “Jesus, as man, is our Saviour”.

Who does the child normally run to when they are in trouble with Dad?

Answer: Mom… :wink:

But - this comparison imports earthly arrangements into those which are decreed by God. His Mercy does not need to be prompted by intercession of Mary: if it did, Mary would have to be eternal,so as to plead with the Father to bring about the very beginnings of our salvation. That is to save her intercession, at the cost of requiring her to be God - it won’t fly.

All comparisons & metaphors fall short of the Reality of God (as 1 Corinthians 2.9 suggests, among others); but some are more clearly inadequate, even misleading, than others. C. S. Lewis writes on this in his essay (?) “Must Our Image of God Go ?” If all Catholic writers on theological matters had as much as a glimmer of his gifts, we would be well off.

God is not a man, or changeable - just as He is not a “Louis XIV in Heaven”; the development of notions of Marian mediation in the 17th century was strongly affected by the royal absolutism of the time: Louis XIV was an absolute monarch, & approach to him was by way of a hierarchy of lesser beings, He being at the top, like a pyramidion at the summit of its pyramid. God, Who is even more absolute than the “Sun King”, & eternal & All-Holy as well, was accordingly written of as though mere mortals could not possibly approach Him, but needed the mediation of the BVM. But they do not - for they have access through Christ, Who is both God & man, the perfect Mediator. So He is entirely with us, & entirely with God, in no way a stranger to either. So the idea of God as a sort of Heavenly Louis XIV is very misleading.

All Grace flows through Jesus and are won by His merits. Who are we to say who He should permit to have strong influence over directing grace?

Nothing - but that idea overlooks this: “I am the Way,the Truth, and the Life” (John 14). He Who is the Way, needs no way to Him; He Who is the Life, needs no life to be given to Him; He Who is the Truth, cannot be more true than He is. Mary, the Saints and other creatures (us included) can exist only because there is not a scrap of need for any of them - because they are totally, utterly, “infinitely” (for no creature can be infinite) unnecessary. God is infinitely necessary, & infinitely free of all necessity. Too much “popular” thinking about the Church, & the Saints (BVM included), & so on, fails to think Biblically & theologically. And that only widens the gap between them, & those whose vocation it is to be theologians & pastors & bishops; & between Catholics & Protestants. Which is lamentable beyond words as well as terribly unhealthy for the Church & its mission. It need not be this way - that is what is so sad about it.

There is no biblical contradiction with anything in Catholic doctrine, dogma and The Bible.

James


#13

Gottle of Geer, with many words you answer very little. What God does not need is a created creature’s human rhetoric and academicism that pretends to divine insight. I find almost no substance here to reply to other that verbosely wrapped opinion and private embellishments and arguments for your own man-made doctrines of faith. Are you Anglican by chance?

I agree with this:
“God “chooses” (so to speak) according to His Sovereign Will and good pleasure. All His ways are good, because they are His.” God certainly is free to choose with His good pleasure to honor Mary “as blessed above ALL woman” - including above the created creature named Eve who was created without sin. If you believe in all of scripture and are not subscribing to a piecewise acceptance of it based on your denominational filter then it becomes child’s play to see that Mary had to be born with out sin to be “blessed above Eve”. Thus Mary is sinless, and while not divine is higher than ANY woman every created or to be created. Comprehende? If you don’t like it complain to God why He had the good pleasure to do this and stop the nerdy pontification - you are sounding like a schoolboy who is reciting back what someone taught him.

This statement is just bizarre:
**## But - this comparison imports earthly arrangements into those which are decreed by God. His Mercy does not need to be prompted by intercession of Mary: if it did, Mary would have to be eternal, so as to plead with the Father to bring about the very beginnings of our salvation. That is to save her intercession, at the cost of requiring her to be God - it won’t fly. **

Hello? ALL OF SCRIPTURE is centered around earthly arrangements and covenants between God and man. Do you read? I appreciate your consistent theme of trying to glorify God by taking every opportunity you can to spew out your praise for His divine goodness and virtues as if none of us others felt the same way. But it’s starting to sound a bit like conspicuous self flagellation of a man trying to get God’s attention given that almost all in these forums love God too. Settle down, there is plenty of God’s love to go around to share with the rest of us. Your logic is faulty if you think Mary needs to be eternal in order for Her to have an intercession for her children who are conceived after (note the temporal implication) her cooperation with God in accepting the Divine Incarnation. She is your mother is is also God’s Queen of Heaven. Sorry if the monarchy imagery is present but it has been there thousands of years before the King of France or Henry VIII decided to remake the Church under him. Go back and read your Old Testament. In particular meditate on the following:

"And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. Then she said, ‘I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.’ And the king said to her, ‘Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.’ (1 Kings 2: 19-20).

More scriptureal insight can be learned from this site:
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html
ewtn.com/library/MARY/MARYINSC.htm

Do not confuse petition and intercession of Mary as a fortification for a deficiency in God’s Mercy. Not all intercessions are equal. Would you hire an incompetent attorney to represent you in a trial or would you hire the best? If a sinner makes no spontaneous plea to God’s mercy does God always proactively grant mercy on the assumption the sinner should ask for it? God’s infinite mercy only reveals itself AFTER the weight of the judgement is given and mercy is petitioned and conveyed. The same thing is true in granting petitions. We can always pray to Jesus and ask for His favor in a particular matter. But it may very well be to ‘His Sovereign Will and good pleasure’ to instead direct us to His mother Queen to decide or intercede on our behalf.

And finally:
## Nothing - but that idea overlooks this: “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” (John 14). He Who is the Way, needs no way to Him; He Who is the Life, needs no life to be given to Him; He Who is the Truth, cannot be more true than He is. Mary, the Saints and other creatures (us included) can exist only because there is not a scrap of need for any of them - because they are totally, utterly, “infinitely” (for no creature can be infinite) unnecessary

Why did Jesus have disciples and John the Baptist to pave the pathways if they were unnecessary? All of the elect come to Jesus through His Church and the apostolic succession. Period.

My friend you are an academic idealist. Note that Jesus never needed to go to college…

James


#14

Gottle’s post is the best by far on this thread. This idea that we must go to Mary to appease the anger of God is completely antiChristian. Mary’s intercession is not for the sake of appeasing the anger of God or satisfying His justice. It is for the sake of unity. As Paul indicates the Church is one and our gifts are given to us for the sake of others(read ICorinthians). No one is an island so to speak. None of us can act on our own.


#15

As I skimmed through various post something occured to me that an important point seems to be missing (but I must point out I only skimmed through these post and not all).

Here is the problem as I see it. The whole discussion of Mary as Mediatrix has Mary isloted from her role in the Church. If I am not mistaken, and I might be, but wasn’t the role of Mary addressed by Vatican II not as a seperate entity but rather in the documents on the Church itself?

Also, if we read all the works of Pope Benedict XVI, I know he always discuss Mary, no matter what title or role, in connection with her relation to the Church. Basically, to truly understand Mary one must study the Church and inorder to fully understand the Church one must attempt to understand Mary and her role in redemption.

I suggest we all take some time and read both Benedict’s works on Mary along with Rev Urs Von Balthasar to get a deeper appreciation of Mary’s role in Salvation and in the Church.


#16

The BVM is discussed in chapter eight of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium.

Many of the Council Fathers favoured having a separate schema, to discuss her alone; the majority pointed out that this would imply just what your post mentions.

IIRC, Michael Davies discussed this issue in his book on Vatican 2.


#17

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