Meeting Women unhappy with the "retreat from Vatican II"

At 55 and my annulment imminent, I’ve recently been active on a couple of on-line dating sites - one Catholic-specific and the other a national site where I make it clear I am a practicing Catholic. At this point I’m just looking for friendship, but that’s not the issue.

Many times I start a correspondence with a Catholic woman, quickly to find that while she considers herself a loyal Catholic, she views the changes being brought about by Pope Benedict with disappointment. In a few instances I’ve pressed for an explanation of what concerns them and I get vague generalities… usually about “the role of women in the Church” but when I asked if they wanted women priests, they said no.

I’m not sure what to conclude from this; I presume that these are women who feel that The Catholic Church needs to “get with the times”; or maybe they just like felt banners and Cum Bye Yah.

Specifically I wonder if it’s just a case of the poor religious “formation” which characterized my own growing up: “sin isn’t really sin” “Jesus loves us whatever we do so do whatever” and “All churches are really the same”… blah blah blah. (Sorry, I spent some time outside of the Church, returning to it when mature study on my own dime brought me back in relief)

I guess I’m beginning to think that I’ll be seeing a lot of movies on one ticket… and I’m not sure I like the idea.

Oh well. I invite comment. (Except on the “dating while still married”; I have no intention of going much beyond “friends” until well after the annulment comes through)

I also know a lot of women who think the current pope is wrong and an embarrassment to all good Catholics. I myself would probably have nodded and agreed a few years ago.

However, since I was widowed I find I have time to explore my faith for the first time. I am humbled to realize how little I knew of the God Who has stood by me for so long. My feminist posturing died a quick death.

I find it impossible to meet men who are even catholic, much less faithful to the Magesterium.

I am looking for a good website for Catholic singles. What would you suggest?

There_and_Back…

I’m only a few years younger and I was never taught sin isn’t really sin. I had very conservative nuns and priests who taught us and I am very conservative in my beliefs. Never got bitten by the feminist bug. I liked having doors open and chairs pulled out for me. LOL

Personally, I like the things this Pope is doing. Bringing the Mass parts more in line with the old school ways we used to do things.

Having a Mother who was very upset with Vatican II where they turned her altars around and the priest spoke in English…was a horrendous evil to her. I grew up post Vatican II but can still remember kneeling at the altar rail for communion…hankies on our heads for church…Mia Culpa’s and then going into folk masses… all very cherished memories of my childhood.

I’m sure you can find many who’s view mimic your own. Even if they don’t totally jive…no reason not to be friends. We don’t all have to agree on everything. How boring would that be? LOL

I don’t think a lot of us understand the Popes’ reasons for changing certain practices we’ve gotten used to.Everytime the new pope changes something many people get upset.We must rely on the decisions the pope makes.I’m sure there are good reasons for them.

They cant give you good reasons because they are just repeating what they have been fed from someone else.

Don’t worry though you don’t need a woman to be happy you will see :wink:

Well the Pope seems to do a pretty good job of explaining why, its just that most people don’t actually take the time to read the explanation it seems to me, and some that do don’t like the reasons.

yes,i agree but we Catholics must accept the changes.How can we decide why the HS inspired the Pope to make such changes?

The Catholic Church is not a democracy. Catholics are supposed to accept what the Pope teaches without question. Papal Infallibility, and all that. :wink:

You are seeing a pattern of not just poor religious formation but misguided religious formation. These women probably consider themselves loyal Catholics because they believe what they were taught by people in positions of authority within the Church. People like well-credentialled theologians, priests, sisters, and those trained by people like that. My most radical feminist friend holds a Ph. D. in theology from well known Catholic University. Some theologians embraced what they called the “Spirit of Vatican II”. They went about promoting changes that the Church had* not* implemented under Vatican II, and some that the Church will never implement at any point in time.

Some people were taught that it was only a matter of time before the Church changed it’s stance on many issues. The Church changed the practice of eating meat on Fridays, the time length for fasting before communion, Latin at all Masses, etc. Some people confuse discipline with doctrine. The “sin isn’t sin” concept stems off from that misconception. Several “sins” in the past that seem to have changed under Vatican II apply to disciplines, not doctrines. The sin was failing to obey the Church’s guidelines–and that’s still a sin.

I doubt very much that all of these women are radical feminist–especially if they aren’t even able to say exactly what it is that they expect to see changed. They may not even know what they mean by the “retreat from Vatican II”. They are likely just echoing back a chorus taught to them somewhere in their faith formation. It’s outdated.

I don’t like alot of the changes that are “happening.” I don’t think we should go backwards.

I think it is really foolish for some churches to “ban” modern worship songs.
I do not think that women should cover their heads, much less for it to be a requirement.
I do not think no meat on Friday accomplishes much, though I think penance should be encouraged.
I like hearing Mass spoken in my language.
I like seeing the Priest.
I also don’t find it necessary to agree with the Pope.
I think we should discuss and debate “closed” topics, explore all the how’s why’s and what’s.
I want to read books, listen to music and make my own decisons about television and not have things “banned” and forbidden. It’s MY choice. I can choose to listen to advisment but no one is going to ban me from anything.

Do I think that their should be women priests? No. But if you’ve ever lived in a girls dorm no one would either.

So basically you want the Catholic Church to do things “your way?”

Unfortunately, over the years the Mass has gotten away from the true meaning of the Mass. It is not about the priest, the homily, the music, the readings, it is about Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for us.

I do not see how bringing in “modern worship” songs enhances the mass by any means (this coming from someone that was involved with Life Teen for over 2 years and enjoys this music). It is not a concert or a rock show. It is not about moving the band to the front of Church so as to “perform” for the Mass.

I did not see where it was a “requirement” for women to cover their heads?

No meat on Friday is a form of penance, what is wrong with that? It is encouraged, not required.

The Pope is not taking English out of the Mass, he is just incorporating more Latin. The priest is there in the person of Christ to present the most holy sacrifice on the altar that is Christ Jesus giving of Himself, the mass is not about the priest.

If you do not agree with the Pope and find it “not necessary” why do you consider yourself Catholic? We are called to be obedient to Christ’s vicar on this earth.

Which “closed topic” are you referring to?

Things are “banned” for a reason, have you ever read of the harmful effects of pornography? If no, there is a reason that is “banned” by the Catholic Church.

I am sorry that you feel such resentment to the Catholic Church.

To the OP:

As it is often the case poor catechesis has given way to the prevailing thoughts and feelings of many Catholics these days, both men and women. You have hit the nail on the head, the Cum By Yah mentality, the moral relativism, the self-centered mass and what it is that “I” can get out of it. The mentality that Catholicism needs to fit into my little box and how I view it has become something that has caused much hurt and confusion. We have to step outside of that box and realize what the Catholic Church teaches and how it is applicable to our daily lives. We need to take those teachings and place them in the box. We live our lives by the teachings of the Church. They are not there to hold us down, repress us or keep us from “having fun.” I follow the teachings of the Church as a married father of 5 and I have a great life! Embracing the Catholic teachings have only enhanced that for me in my life.

God bless you for your question and for your faith. I pray that you stay strong in your faith and wish you the best going forward.

Uhhh no. I just don’t think we should go back to the somber proceedings, judgemental attitudes and overbearing state that occured in the church before Vatican II.

Unfortunately, over the years the Mass has gotten away from the true meaning of the Mass. It is not about the priest, the homily, the music, the readings, it is about Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for us.

I do not see how bringing in “modern worship” songs enhances the mass by any means (this coming from someone that was involved with Life Teen for over 2 years and enjoys this music). It is not a concert or a rock show. It is not about moving the band to the front of Church so as to “perform” for the Mass.

The Pope has spoken out against this music. If he could end it, he would. I like the music. I find it uplifting. Chant is not for me. I find that pretentious.

I did not see where it was a “requirement” for women to cover their heads?

It was before Vat II. And I would be shamed to be Catholic if it “changed back”

No meat on Friday is a form of penance, what is wrong with that? It is encouraged, not required.

I’m more or less a vegeterian so this dosn’t even affect me. It more again, the idea to have the “wierdo Catholics” who don’t eat meat on Friday. I think that sticking ourself out there for no good reason is wrong.

The Pope is not taking English out of the Mass, he is just incorporating more Latin. The priest is there in the person of Christ to present the most holy sacrifice on the altar that is Christ Jesus giving of Himself, the mass is not about the priest.

Again, Vat II made English possible. I wouldn’t want it changed.

If you do not agree with the Pope and find it “not necessary” why do you consider yourself Catholic? We are called to be obedient to Christ’s vicar on this earth.

Only in matters of faith and morals. I do not hang on to every word…which some people seem to think is good.

Which “closed topic” are you referring to?

I believe that we should be able to reason through and talk about things that won’t ever happen…women priests, etc, etc. We should be allowed to talk about it and encouraged to intellectualy explore a topic, to debate and discuss whatever we want.

Things are “banned” for a reason, have you ever read of the harmful effects of pornography? If no, there is a reason that is “banned” by the Catholic Church.

Yes, it is harmful. But it should be a personal and moral decision, not simply becuase the church sais so. And I find it more of a statement against sexual violence, not one against media.
I was more refering to things like Harry Potter and the way books were banned in ernst years before. I am glad the Church got out of the business of banning things.

I am sorry that you feel such resentment to the Catholic Church.

I’m not resentful. I just don’t want to go backwards.

Huh? :confused:

To Purple Sunshine
A few years ago I would have agreed with most of what you say. My Catholicism was just one of a number of beliefs that made up who I am, or was. Then I could not cover my head because it conflicted with my notions of womens dignity for example. (BTW, I don’t cover my head and it is not nor ever has been required to do so. Merely a custom)

I have slowly, very slowly, realized that what I think doesn’t matter very much. I realized that Jesus came to tell us to conform ourselves to the will of God. The entire history of salvation gives us lesson after lesson in how to be obedient. Christ tells us that we must obey with our minds, hearts and will. “…obedient unto death, even death on a cross.”

I discovered that for me, obedience began in the heart. Then I learned why I should obey dogma and from that, how to obey.

Now I am less interested in what I like and more interested in what God likes.

:rolleyes: Yes. so credible behind you’re all of ten posts.

I obey what is necessary. But I am allwed to have an opinion. Swelching who I am is in no way what Jesus wants.

Hmmm… not exactly. While it is true that the Church is not a democracy, it is also true that not everything the Pope says is infallible, nor are all papal statements binding on Catholics. We are, however, obligated to listen with respect and sincerely consider the direction offered by the Holy Father.

As for the OP, it must feel frustrating to sense that the women you are conversing with might be dissenters, but you can’t pin them down. I don’t know why they are uncomfortable with Pope Benedict’s papacy, and I think that we here at CAF can only make guesses. Perhaps you could ask the women who express concern, what would they like to see different? If they could wave a magic wand, how would the Church (or their church) be better than it is now?

Maybe I missed a CAF rule having been away for some time, but since when does the # of posts that a member has lessen or increase their credibility. I think that which was shared by spiritblessed was very charitable and a way to show heartfelt compassion for you in your situation. If you deemed the advice or story unworthy of you and how you want to live you life, fine, but no need to be rude about it.

“Obeying what is necessary” is to follow the will of Jesus Christ. That is what the Catholic Church has always taught. Although for you, in your cafeteria that does not fit, that does not make it any less true. I can accept that you have a difference of opinion on several of the issues that you have raised and that is all well and good as long as you are willing to post your opinion, you must realize that others have a different opinion and may be at times more seasoned in any given situation as to give sound advice. Such advice can be taken by you and learned from or dismissed as you see fit.

The teachings of the Church are the truths of Jesus Christ, yours is to choose to accept those teachings or not. That, ultimately, is the choice that you have with your God-given free will.

The need to come here and attack is not necessary and if that is what this is becoming, I think it would be best to back away from this thread until an adult conversation can be had.

And what rule makes me NOT allowed to question a new poster. Questioning a person that I have NO track record of is healthy. I’m not a trout.

“Obeying what is necessary” is to follow the will of Jesus Christ. That is what the Catholic Church has always taught. Although for you, in your cafeteria that does not fit, that does not make it any less true. I can accept that you have a difference of opinion on several of the issues that you have raised and that is all well and good as long as you are willing to post your opinion, you must realize that others have a different opinion and may be at times more seasoned in any given situation as to give sound advice. Such advice can be taken by you and learned from or dismissed as you see fit.

The teachings of the Church are the truths of Jesus Christ, yours is to choose to accept those teachings or not. That, ultimately, is the choice that you have with your God-given free will.

The need to come here and attack is not necessary and if that is what this is becoming, I think it would be best to back away from this thread until an adult conversation can be had.

Blah blah blahhh.

I agree with things, I LIKE the state of the church now. I don’t think it’s right to turn it around. I like my music, my freedoms, my choices. I believe that’s what God intended in the first place.

Ah, but who you are =/= your opinions. I should know, I’ve been wrong often enough. :slight_smile:

It is pride that tells us that our opinions are always right. We are called to be humble, and to be open to learning from others, especially when those ‘others’ have been called by God to be shepherds in the Church.

I’m not saying I’m right. I’m saying that I agree that the Church should leave well enough alone and I’m not going to follow any backwards thinking.

I have seen firsthand what this sort of thinking does. It leads to closed churches where they don’t let women in pants enter (even if they’re not wearing jeans). It leads to cold hearts where people pray rosary insted of paying attention. It leads to families with a dozen kids that look down upon everyone else and who have never seen a beach or even swam. It leads to self-rigious priests who refuse to curb insence use for the elederly on oxygen who struggle to breathe. It leads to people who think they can buy pews and tell you to move. It leads to women being called nasty words for not covering. It leads to men who are taught to be devistated when they are un/underemployed becuase they are supposed to be men. I know firsthand, and I pray that this backwards thinking remains in small, isolated freak pockets and dosn’t come to pass. I have no desire to be the kind of Catholic that was required before Vat II.

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