Memorandum 2011

Hi folks,

today I've read an article in the "Tyrolean Daily News" about the "Memorandum 2011".
It was about that that this Memorandum is a point of lively discussion among theologians in Europe at the moment.

I didn't know about that Memorandum, and so googled it and read it.
I'd like to share it with you: Click here.

This memorandum dates February 4, 2011.

Many theologians already have signed it. But there are also other voices like a group of laity in Germany who say that the Church firmly has to stick on the doctrine of the Holy See in Rome.

I'd like to hear your opinions on this memorandum.

I'll start: I was really astonished how far the thoughts of these theologians go, they even consider to put the priesthood an a free basis (meaning that also married men can become priest) or women ordination.
I really like this memorandum and would sign it at once, if I were asked to.
IMO, these are steps in the right direction to go through the persistent crisis of the (R)CC. *

Yours, in Christ,*

And here also, to be fair, the "anti-memorandum".

Sadly enough I've found it in German only. :(

No this strikes me as opportunists seeking to attach themselves to a crisis to advance an agenda. These paragraphs below raised danger signs for me instantly:-

Freedom of Conscience: Respect for individual conscience means placing trust in people’s ability to make decisions and carry responsibility. It is also the task of the Church to support this capability; this task must not revert to paternalism. It is especially important to take this seriously in the realm of personal life decisions and individual life styles. The Church’s esteem for marriage and for the unmarried form of life goes without saying. But this does not require the exclusion of people who responsibly live out love, faithfulness, and mutual care in same-sex partnerships or in a remarriage after divorce.

It is evident that the authors are saying we must abandon teaching that homosexuality is disordered. And we do not stop loving people who are homosexual because we disagree with their lifestyles, that is a false dilemma they are presenting.

  1. Worship: The liturgy lives from the active participation of all the faithful. Contemporary experiences and forms of expression must have their place in it. The Eucharist and other celebrations of the sacraments must not become frozen in traditionalism. Cultural diversity enriches liturgical life; this is not compatible with a tendency toward centralized uniformity. Only when the celebration of faith takes account of concrete life situations will the Church’s message reach people.

The Church already has a great deal of cultural diversity within it's ranks and nor is it as centralised and uniform and stagnant as the authors of this document are aiming to suggest.

M. Junker-Kenny who's name is at the bottom is I note an associate professor of theology at Trinity College in Dublin. I'd not heard of her before this and don't know anything about her. If anyone else does who cares to contribute feel free.

At first, I thought it was a joke. So I laughed.

Then, I realised it was serious, and I got annoyed.

They say the Church should support the law. What law? The laws of Russia? Models of fairness, just ask any Chechen. The laws of Sweden, that forbid parents to teach their own children? The laws of the US, that execute the poorest people?

They say the Church should change its teaching on homosexuality. Why? By whose authority? Where in the bible does it say to do that, even remotely?

They say the Church should accept divorce. How many? Two? Three? Five? What about twenty?

You sign it if you want.

Can we leave ad hominem out of the discussion please.

[quote="Warrenton, post:4, topic:228778"]
At first, I thought it was a joke. So I laughed.

Then, I realised it was serious, and I got annoyed.

But then I got happy again, because I realized there really is a place for all the morons in the world.

It is the universities, working as professors.

They say the Church should support the law. What law? The laws of Russia? Models of fairness, just ask any Chechen. The laws of Sweden, that forbid parents to teach their own children? The laws of the US, that execute the poorest people?

They say the Church should change its teaching on homosexuality. Why? By whose authority? Where in the bible does it say to do that, even remotely?

They say the Church should accept divorce. How many? Two? Three? Five? What about twenty?

You sign it if you want. Then pass me the bong you're smoking, and maybe I'll sign it too, when I'm high enough!

[/quote]

Yes, please keep this thread charitable!
No attacking of people. (Btw, this is against the CAF rules).

This is a sincere discussion at the moment here in Europe.
And I think, and it's my right to think so, that the authors are right that there need to be reforms in the RCC. (I think a decline of 80,000 Catholics here in Austria says enough!)

Theologians operate in a secular world; often forgetting and then tending toward a belief that their ideas are the tail that wags the dog.

It just ain’t so in the Catholic Church.

Memoradum 2011

"4. Freedom of Conscience: Respect for individual conscience means placing trust in people’s ability to make decisions and carry responsibility. It is also the task of the Church to support this capability; this task must not revert to paternalism. It is especially important to take this seriously in the realm of personal life decisions and individual life styles. The Church’s esteem for marriage and for the unmarried form of life goes without saying. But this does not require the exclusion of people who responsibly live out love, faithfulness, and mutual care in same-sex partnerships **or in a **remarriage after divorce."

Freedom of conscience? What exactly are they speaking about when they refer to the application of mortal sin? Which other mortal sin would they like changed to venial?

My suggestion would be that these theologians be given the opportunity to find employment as instructors on Episcopalian or ELCA campuses.

It just gets better :smiley:

What a hoot.

“2. Parish Community: Christian communities should be places where people share spiritual and material goods with one another… The Church also needs married priests and women in ordained ministry.”

If the Catholic Church operated like a business, the Pope would have fired these theologians faster than I can type Republican House of Representative Christopher Lee.

I can only pray.

Be very very careful which 'catholic' college you select, either for yourself or for your children.

Bio on Maureen Junker - Kenny:

tcd.ie/Religions_Theology/staff/junker-kenny_maureen.php

The Memo 2011 manifesto reads like a belligerent child wrote it.

"The dialogue process that has already begun in the Church **can lead to liberation and a new departure **only when all participants are ready to take up the pressing questions."

And...the pressing questions needing "liberation" and a "new departure"?

Changing Scripture to fit present day morality in society?
Woman priests?
Ending chastity and celibacy standards for all religious?
Normalizing homosexual acts?
Ordained noncelibate SSA males and females?
Homosexual marriages?

[quote="Barbkw, post:10, topic:228778"]
If the Catholic Church operated like a business, the Pope would have fired these theologians faster than I can type Republican House of Representative Christopher Lee.

I can only pray.

Be very very careful which 'catholic' college you select, either for yourself or for your children.

Bio on Maureen Junker - Kenny:

tcd.ie/Religions_Theology/staff/junker-kenny_maureen.php

The Memo 2011 manifesto reads like a belligerent child wrote it.

[/quote]

Trinity College is NOT a Catholic College despite the name been perhaps misleading. It's the Irish equivalent to say Cambridge or Oxford and is the oldest University in Ireland. it was founded in 1592 by permission of Queen Elizabeth I.

Memorandum of a Catholic on the crisis of theologians:
*
If you align yourself with Satan you will loose the cultural war!*

Blessings

Just a quick further point for non-Americans to be aware of having mentiond Trinity College. It is the premier seat of learning in Ireland but until relatively recently you needed special dispensation as a Catholic to attend it or you faced excommunication. That was over turned in 1970

In 1970 that the Roman Catholic Church, through the then Archbishop of Dublin John Charles McQuaid, lifted its policy of disapproval or even excommunication for Roman Catholics who enrolled without special dispensation. At the same time, the Trinity authorities allowed a Roman Catholic chaplain to be based in the college. There are now two such Catholic chaplains.

Don't assume the fact it is in Ireland automatically means safe to assume it's Catholic just because is sounds like it. I can't find too much more info about this professor. I agree though that the document is full of awkard moments and bad reasoning. Although of course I possessing only an education to age 18 should not I suppose be challenging a professor others who disagree with me might argue.

Don’t forget that we are speaking of Germany and Austria. There’s no Episcopolian Church in German speaking countries. :wink: - Except you want to say that the Old Catholic Church/Utrecht is the same as the Episcopolean Church in the US. ;=
Well, and the ELCA would be in Germany the Lutheran Evangelical Church of Germany. (short: EKD)

Well, despite the negative answers concerning this Memorandum, I think they have fair points.
There did many things go wrong in the Church in the past years. And I also think that the danger is very high that the Church waits so long until the things (concerning missuse etc) are forgotten and then continue like they did before.

Although, to be fair, I also don’t think that these liberal points would change anything.
I mean the Lutheran Church in Germany, i.e. are very liberal as well - nevertheless they also have to struggle with loss of members.

I don’t know what could be done to reach people nowadays.
I think it’s getting harder and harder to reach the people with Christianity… - No matter which Church or denomination in this case, IMO.

Changing Scripture to fit present day morality in society?
Woman priests?
Ending chastity and celibacy standards for all religious?
Normalizing homosexual acts?
Ordained noncelibate SSA males and females?
Homosexual marriages?

People can talk, proclaim, pronounce, argue, scream, denounce, suggest and demand till the cows come home.
The One Holy Catholic Church will NEVER be bullied into changing any doctrine whatsoever and IF they decide on a modification to a disipline, it will take years and years; if not decades or even centurys.
That is why HMC is the One Church and why I spent 2 and 1/2 years in R.C.I.A. just so I could be a member. The Holy Church established by Jesus Christ Himself will never be deterred from truth. :)
BTW, I always find it interesting that most of the protest against the doctrines of HMC are by non-Catholics and cafeteria types.

What a joke.

Yes, let's throw off the yoke of the Holy Spirit and decide for ourselves who our priests & bishops are, what are sins and what aren't, etc. and that will lend more "credibility" to the church. :rolleyes:

Good luck with that - I'll stick with the Church that Christ founded - even though it's made up with sinners like myself who make mistakes.

[quote="Esdra, post:6, topic:228778"]
Yes, please keep this thread charitable!
No attacking of people. (Btw, this is against the CAF rules).

This is a sincere discussion at the moment here in Europe.
And I think, and it's my right to think so, that the authors are right that there need to be reforms in the RCC. (I think a decline of 80,000 Catholics here in Austria says enough!)

[/quote]

These so-called scholars are so bereft of any original idea that they have to steal one from a German Augustinian who died 500 years ago. Using the sex scandals to justify their suggestions is revolting and cynical. They love the sex scandal, because it boosts their agenda.

The mentality of these "theologians" is exactly the same as the mentality of Austrians who reacted to the assasination of Dolfuss by donning a red and black armband. "Become like those who hate you, then there will be amity."

You're in Europe, so tell me: did the anschluss "solve" anything?

Use logic: saying that abolishing the priesthood will stop priests from having sex with juveniles is like saying abolishing the crime of murder will stop people killing each other.

The same people will still do the same act, only their label will change.

You may claim that this is a "discussion" in Austria. It may well be. But I deny that it is a "serious" discussion, any more than "Rock Me Amadeus" was serious Austrian music.

To read manifesto 2011, one would think that no ordinary Fritz on the Ringstrasse ever had sex with a 15 year old. What does anyone think Falco was doing on Hispaniola Island when he died, praying to the Infant of Prague?

Who do you think is fueling the enormous legal sex industry in Germany? The Dominicans? The Jesuits? Maybe the Discalced Carmelites? How about ordinary German men? Do you think all of the people servicing their lusts are fully mature German frau, looking for a few more Euros so they can upgrade the Audi to a Benz? How are they going to "purify" the Church?

Let me tell you something about this scandal: it is the result of the same corruption in society that exists from top to bottom. The Church is attacked because it shifts the blame from guilty people and guilty governments who take the money and fail to govern. It buys them additional time from having to face the truth about themselves. The Church is the only institution in the West that even attempts to reform itself.

I regret if anything I wrote hurt your feelings. That manifesto, however, is poison.

Whoa we could also do without the rather odd Nazi comparisons been thrown in there which are nothing to do with this thread.

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:19, topic:228778"]
Whoa we could also do without the rather odd Nazi comparisons been thrown in there which are nothing to do with this thread.

[/quote]

I beg to differ. The "manifesto 2011" mentality is blatantly of appeasement and accomodation. The authors invite the comparison.

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