Men who refuse to abstain


#1

First, I want to say that I do not want this to be a male bashing thread.

I have however seen a pattern both in my life and in the life of friends. We are told (recently even when Jason Evert was on), that if we hold men to high standards, they will meet them. Well, they haven't. Only a few have, compared to the general Catholic population. And they are married. There are also countless single women who can testify that their men don't meet the standards but rather find a woman who will not follow the Church's teachings.

Then, I had an argument about contraception and tried to explain NFP, and finally my friend said in exasperation that it doesn't work. She cited how she knew many who tried it and still got pregnant. And, she added that their husbands refuse to abstain and since they won't cooperate, a woman does not have a choice but to use contraception, because he will leave, or find a girlfriend. And then I see that that is exactly what happens (three recent cases where the man found a girlfriend because the wife insisted on NFP).

We try to defend the Church's teaching, but don't see a lot of cooperation from our male counterparts.
How does a woman not get discouraged or cynical when faced with this? How can we respect men when faced with this? I want to respect them!


#2

By not abstaining, I assume you mean these men do want to have sex, only with artificial birth control during the fertile times?

I can't answer for men, but I can answer for me. I don't plan on using ABC, ever. I'm a 34 y/o man, and I hope to meet a wonderful Catholic woman who feels the same way.


#3

Both kinds, abstaining before marriage and abstaining from sex in marriage from time to time.

As for your assertion about never using abc: Thank God for you! :thumbsup:

And may God bless you!


#4

Well, bless you too! :):highprayer:


#5

I have the same frustration as you, but in reverse. :shrug:


#6

The trouble is, it doesn't matter what the moral issue is, very few people want to follow the church's teachings.

As for the men who won't meet the purity standard so they find another girl, they IMHO fall under 2 categories,

1-)The single guy who finds a woman who will have sex, never really loved his girlfriend in the first place. You can bet your bottom dollar that when that guy does find a girl he truly loves, he will be proposing immediately.

2-) The husband who cheats on his wife because she insisits on NFP and that guy was never worth the time of day in the first place.

I am a single woman and I am with you that it would be great to respect men but it is hard in this sexually promiscuous society. However, men are only 50% of the problem. The other 50% of women. What Jason Evert forgot to tell you that in order for men to meet the high standard, all women must inforce it.

The reality is, I can rarely remember a man mocking me for saving myself, but women...... that is a whole other story. More woman have called me a prude for wanting to wait. Most women do not me to come to the girls night out because I put a damper on the evening. Lots of times at the office when I try to join the girl talk they tell me 'CM, I don't think you want to hear about this'. They make it very obvious they don't want me around because their 'sleeze' talk is so much funner than me.

So, yes, I agree with you it is hard not to think of all men as perverts. But as women, it is up to us to set a good example for women and hope there are some good men out there to set a good example for men

CM


#7

I agree that it is two-sided.

Women are often mean to each other and are promiscuous, too. Many "modern" women want to sleep with men and brag about it to their friends. Men brag about the women they sleep with. It's sort of a contest to them. Men can also be mean to women and call them names if they don't get their way; it's like a small child throwing a tantrum because he wants the woman to act a certain way but she will not.

These people are immature (self-centered, pleasure-seeking) emotionally and are not ready to settle down. They put themselves first, which is not a good basis for marriage or parenthood, where you are required to put your spouse and children before yourself. And they put God last and/or completely ignore Him, which can be destructive to a person's faith.

My suggestion would be to avoid these people. Test them by going out on a date with them and being up front. Tell them you believe in chastity and explain what it is (chastity is NOT "everything BUT sex"). They will probably leave within a week or two (if not on that day) because they are used to sleeping with their date within a short period of time. It's a good way to weed out people and find someone who is interested in getting serious.

As for NFP, be up front about that, too. Let them know that you will not be using ABC under any circumstances, just like sex outside of marriage is not okay under any circumstances. Let them know that, despite what the media and drug companie$ want you to believe, NFP does work (it is not the rhythm method, which is what people are talking about when they say it doesn't work). Encourage your anti-NFP friends to take an NFP class and remind them that risky days are not a good time to have intercourse because it can and does lead to pregnancy. Let them know that NFP statistically has very, very low divorce rates (I've heard <2%, <1%), which of course are far below the average for any other group. NFP encourages good communication because people think of other ways to be close without jumping in bed every time. And abstaining for a while can make the infertile period more like a honeymoon again, where you fall in love with your spouse all over again.


#8

I would simply like to point out that the disordered sexual desire in men is by far more pronounced than in women. Pray for our healing, purification, and redeemption and don't be disappointed. It's who we are!


#9

Good advice by Stephe1987 on weeding out the unsuitable dates. Jason Evert may have forgotten to tell, or may have found it too obvious to mention, that not ALL men are interested in meeting higher standards. Heck, it may not even be a majority, even among those who attend church. So, you really must start with a "selection" or "weed-out" phase, to find someone who does take seriously the commandments of God, and is already working hard on living up to God's standards, independently of the fact that you are going to be a partner and not a foe in their quest for living every single day in a way pleasing to God. It's really not like you can start dating any womanizer, fornicator, and expect them to change their ways, just because you hold them to high standards. No, they will drag you down to their own lack of standards, or else quickly dump you.

Regarding ABC and NFP, I wouldn't start by explaining to my date that NFP is as effective as ABC - even though it is, as a matter of fact. I would start by explaining this: we are not going to use ABC, period. And that means, we might conceive a baby, whenever we have sex. It's much more important to put the emphasis on the simple fact that every single time you have sex with your spouse, it is possible that a baby will be conceived. Although the chances are lower during certain phases of a woman's fertility cycle, the possibility is always there and that's what needs to be said first. Every time the spouses unite, they say yes to God possibly giving them the gift of a baby.


#10

[quote="MaryRocks, post:1, topic:241363"]
First, I want to say that I do not want this to be a male bashing thread.

I have however seen a pattern both in my life and in the life of friends. We are told (recently even when Jason Evert was on), that if we hold men to high standards, they will meet them. Well, they haven't. Only a few have, compared to the general Catholic population. And they are married. There are also countless single women who can testify that their men don't meet the standards but rather find a woman who will not follow the Church's teachings.

Then, I had an argument about contraception and tried to explain NFP, and finally my friend said in exasperation that it doesn't work. She cited how she knew many who tried it and still got pregnant. And, she added that their husbands refuse to abstain and since they won't cooperate, a woman does not have a choice but to use contraception, because he will leave, or find a girlfriend. And then I see that that is exactly what happens (three recent cases where the man found a girlfriend because the wife insisted on NFP).

We try to defend the Church's teaching, but don't see a lot of cooperation from our male counterparts.
How does a woman not get discouraged or cynical when faced with this? How can we respect men when faced with this? I want to respect them!

[/quote]

Honestly my friend. Perhaps they should have discussed this before they were married? A woman cant just wake up one day and cut her husband off, and think its gonna be ok. That is kind of an unfair burden and test to put on him, correct? How in the middle of the game can the rules be switched? perhaps the ladies need to discuss this with their prospective mates ahead of time, so this kind of situation can be avoided. Your allowing Outside entities dictate terms of your marriage. This is unacceptable. Just some things to think about. Not mad at the ladies who decide this, but think its unfair to the men, to enter into such a covenant if they were led to believe otherwise. Peace :(


#11

"if we hold men to high standards, they will meet them."

Standards must be reasonable. Attainable.

Most of you have watched way too many princess movies growing up. I'm sorry to have to break this to you. Prince Charming is not going to come searching for you while you await him in your ivory tower. There is no happily ever after.

Marriage is work. Hard work. I'm not perfect. She not perfect. There's no such thing. I don't have a white horse. The birds don't break into song when she steps out on to the porch.

There was a thread the other day from a young man who couldn't cope with the thought that his girlfriend was not a virgin. Ivory tower syndrome.

Did Jesus live in an ivory tower?


#12

[quote="benidict, post:10, topic:241363"]
Honestly my friend. Perhaps they should have discussed this before they were married? A woman cant just wake up one day and cut her husband off, and think its gonna be ok. That is kind of an unfair burden and test to put on him, correct? How in the middle of the game can the rules be switched? perhaps the ladies need to discuss this with their prospective mates ahead of time, so this kind of situation can be avoided. Your allowing Outside entities dictate terms of your marriage. This is unacceptable. Just some things to think about. Not mad at the ladies who decide this, but think its unfair to the men, to enter into such a covenant if they were led to believe otherwise. Peace :(

[/quote]

Oh they did, and had many children. But the men changed their minds.

Thank you all for the advice. Sometimes it is hard because we are up front about being faithful and then find ourselves over forty, single and childless (and we didn't 'wait' because we had a career!). An inordinate number of women find themselves here.

It makes it hard for evangelization, and shakes the faith of many.


#13

[quote="MaryRocks, post:12, topic:241363"]
Oh they did, and had many children. But the men changed their minds.

Thank you all for the advice. Sometimes it is hard because we are up front about being faithful and then find ourselves over forty, single and childless (and we didn't 'wait' because we had a career!). An inordinate number of women find themselves here.

It makes it hard for evangelization, and shakes the faith of many.

[/quote]

So perhaps I misunderstood. Are you saying they WERE in agreement with the Catholic Churches teachings, then the MEN decided they wanted their wives on artificial methods? Ok. That would change things considerably. If the man had agreed to this, then changed the rules in the middle of the Game. HE would be the one at fault. No way I would want my wife on the pill, and personally I have always found condoms detestable. I had a vecsectomy years before my conversion, so its not so much an issue. with me. my fiancee is not Catholic either, but At least she will not have these chemicals floating around in her body. We are both much older too, with grown and almost grown children. Sorry if I misunderstood, A guys who did this Would be a pig. No argument here. ;)


#14

I don't think you are being fair...
I live in a Catholic country and I am a male that wishes to stay a virgin until I am married but even Catholic girls I know of think that this is outdated.
Girls these days get an excuse for just anything: dressing however they like, teasing whomever they like, abusing whomever they like just because if a man does anything against what they want he is either "rude", "medieval", or a "fag" (I've been called this).

Men and women are both called to be chaste and the fact that God made men phisically stronger than most women makes the man more responsible for what he does but that doesn't mean that women get a free pass. Women can control emotions much better than men can.

There are both chaste men and women and promiscuous men and women. Promiscuous men need promiscuous women to "pair up" unless you want talk about homosexuality.

Look for good men and you will find them. They are not imaginary. Just don't expect to find many if you already go with that prejudice about men.

God Bless you,
Daniel


#15

[quote="Paul1961, post:11, topic:241363"]
"if we hold men to high standards, they will meet them."

Standards must be reasonable. Attainable.

Most of you have watched way too many princess movies growing up. I'm sorry to have to break this to you. Prince Charming is not going to come searching for you while you await him in your ivory tower. There is no happily ever after.

Marriage is work. Hard work. I'm not perfect. She not perfect. There's no such thing. I don't have a white horse. The birds don't break into song when she steps out on to the porch.

There was a thread the other day from a young man who couldn't cope with the thought that his girlfriend was not a virgin. Ivory tower syndrome.

Did Jesus live in an ivory tower?

[/quote]

:thumbsup:


#16

I am a man, under 40 and have abstained for 8 years for my wife sake. Never once have asked or even considered any kind of contraception. That does not make me or my wife heroes, but it does prove that there are some people who follow the moral law in this area out there.

For the women you speak of, contraception is not the alternative. By even considering it in the conversation completely undercuts their position and ability to bring their husbands in line. The alternative is abstinence (complete or periodic assuming just reasons etc) or have more kids. Having more kids often means a significant change in lifestyle. Perhaps 1 income and a lot less luxuries. Both spouses have a right is this decision, outside of very serious situations, one can not/should not force abstinence on the other, however there are only two choices, abstinence/nfp or a higher possibility of more children and a different lifestyle (which is not a bad thing).


#17

Age 28, not a holy man but abstained as unmarried. And not because women kept me to any standards. Men are and can be responsible for their standards and don't need to be baby-sat by women in this regard; in fact, many men do have to keep women off them sexually in relationships. In fact, very few women are ready to abstain from sexual relationships when married and abstain from using contraception when married.

[quote="Paul1961, post:11, topic:241363"]
"if we hold men to high standards, they will meet them."

Standards must be reasonable. Attainable.

Did Jesus live in an ivory tower?

[/quote]

No, He didn't, but never once did He fall short of any standard valid in the eyes of God.

Being forgiving of trespasses is one thing, turning the standards a couple notches down is another.


#18

[quote="dskysmine, post:14, topic:241363"]
I don't think you are being fair...
I live in a Catholic country and I am a male that wishes to stay a virgin until I am married but even Catholic girls I know of think that this is outdated.
Girls these days get an excuse for just anything: dressing however they like, teasing whomever they like, abusing whomever they like just because if a man does anything against what they want he is either "rude", "medieval", or a "fag" (I've been called this).

Men and women are both called to be chaste and the fact that God made men phisically stronger than most women makes the man more responsible for what he does but that doesn't mean that women get a free pass. Women can control emotions much better than men can.

There are both chaste men and women and promiscuous men and women. Promiscuous men need promiscuous women to "pair up" unless you want talk about homosexuality.

Look for good men and you will find them. They are not imaginary. Just don't expect to find many if you already go with that prejudice about men.

God Bless you,
Daniel

[/quote]

Perhaps some of my tangents obscured my main point: what I want to say is that what I have described is the number one stumbling block for getting women to accept the Church's teaching. It makes evangalization extremely difficult. I myself am not really concerned about my own search--I am just so saddened to see so many women use contraception and then frustrated when trying to spread the Church's teaching to my sisters that many men are creating this stumbling block. Through this there has been a loss respect for men that is created personally, but I suppose that obscured the point. That's for me to work out personally. The main point is the stumbling block that is created for women. I apologize if I did not make that clear.
Perhaps another thread is needed to address that stumbling blocks that women create.


#19

I've had the problem of either finding guys more like me politically and socially but not Catholic and not willing to wait or finding guys who were Catholic and willing but insisted on being macho, pompous and self-righteous. Or, they were afraid of girls and didn't know how to hold normal conversation AT ALL.

So, either find a Catholic guy who didn't treat me right or a non-Catholic guy who didn't treat me right. TO THE CONVENT(MOBILE)!

As it turned out, I ended up finding a good Catholic boy, one who's also politically moderate (though he leans more conservative and I'm more liberal), a bookworm, fellow urbanite and concerned about all issues of social justice (including pro-life). He's also quite the romantic and quite the gentleman. :blush:

I found him when I wasn't looking. I found him after I learned from mistakes and considered what I truly wanted. I found him when I finally became comfortable with myself.

Ladies and gentlemen, you know when someone's heart is on God. They may have made mistakes. They may not be a prince or princess in the eyes of the world. They may be "traditional" or "modern" in terms of their lifestyles. You will, however, know when their heart is on God.


#20

[quote="MaryRocks, post:12, topic:241363"]
Thank you all for the advice. Sometimes it is hard because we are up front about being faithful and then find ourselves over forty, single and childless (and we didn't 'wait' because we had a career!). An inordinate number of women find themselves here.

It makes it hard for evangelization, and shakes the faith of many.

[/quote]

If the only thing a woman has on the brain is marriage and kids, then yes, I agree us single women over 40 without children don't send out a good advertisement

But, to the woman who wants true happiness, our christian walk and the positive fruit is bears, is more than sufficient evangelization.


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