MERGED: Confirmation before First Communion?/Restoration of Order


#1

Here is n article from Archbishop Aquila while he was Bishop of the Diocese of Fargo (where I live).

ncregister.com/daily-news/bishop-aquila-confirmation-should-be-received-before-first-communion

What are your thoughts on it? I am in favor of doing Confirmation before First Communion.


#2

[quote="aidanbradypop, post:1, topic:315069"]
Here is n article from Archbishop Aquila while he was Bishop of the Diocese of Fargo (where I live).

ncregister.com/daily-news/bishop-aquila-confirmation-should-be-received-before-first-communion

What are your thoughts on it? I am in favor of doing Confirmation before First Communion.

[/quote]

As it is the traditional order of receiving the sacraments of initiation it should never have been changed and should be put right as soon as possible. :)


#3

[quote="UncleBill, post:2, topic:315069"]
As it is the traditional order of receiving the sacraments of initiation it should never have been changed and should be put right as soon as possible. :)

[/quote]

Pope Benedict praised Archbishop's views of this but not sure as to how far it went at the Vatican.


#4

If you look at anything the Church puts out about the Sacraments of Initiation, it is always: Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist -- in that order. The Code of Canon Law, the Catechism, etc., all discuss it that way.

The Catechism says that "the Eucharist completes Christian Initiation" (CCC 1322).

Theologically speaking, I think one can make a much stronger case for the traditional order rather than the present order in many places. Pragmatically speaking is a different story. It's a tough concept to sell in most places. "We've always done it this way" (even if "always" really only means the last few generations) is a difficult mindset to overcome.


#5

However, the only requirement for the First Communion is Baptism. Therefore it is not illicit, as it happened to some of us, to receive this Sacrament first.


#6

[quote="aidanbradypop, post:1, topic:315069"]
Here is n article from Archbishop Aquila while he was Bishop of the Diocese of Fargo (where I live).

ncregister.com/daily-news/bishop-aquila-confirmation-should-be-received-before-first-communion

What are your thoughts on it? I am in favor of doing Confirmation before First Communion.

[/quote]

I'm in favor of restoring the order of the sacraments of initiation. We are so tied into what we see as tradition, which in our culture involves First Communion at around age 7 or 8, followed by Confirmation at age 12 or 13 or 15 or 16, depending on the locality. So many people don't realize that this order/time frame is only about 100 years old.


#7

[quote="babochka, post:6, topic:315069"]
I'm in favor of restoring the order of the sacraments of initiation. We are so tied into what we see as tradition, which in our culture involves First Communion at around age 7 or 8, followed by Confirmation at age 12 or 13 or 15 or 16, depending on the locality. So many people don't realize that this order/time frame is only about 100 years old.

[/quote]

And mostly here in the US ..........most of the Catholic world still does things in the proper order.


#8

I think the EASTERN churches have the right idea. Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist all at one time. Why did the Western church get away from this? I'm told that this was done in the whole church many centuries ago.


#9

[quote="UncleBill, post:7, topic:315069"]
And mostly here in the US ..........most of the Catholic world still does things in the proper order.

[/quote]

Is this accurate?

I know that in the Philippines and Mexico is was common to confirm in infancy or early childhood as late as the 1970s, but a friend who is a recent immigrant from the Philippines says that it is no longer common and is actively discouraged there now.

Every European Catholic I know (excepting my Ukrainian and Slovak friends) were confirmed in adolescence. I read an article a while back about a diocese in Italy in which the Bishop planned to change the Confirmation age from 12 to 18, but the Vatican objected and the plan was put on hold. I would imagine throughout Europe the situation is similar to that in the US. Outside of these specific cases, I don't really know what the situation is throughout the world, such as Africa or South America.


#10

Yeah I am confused like most are. When Archbishop Aquila made this statement, Pope Benedict praised His Grace. I cannot afirm personally if it ever took place in the Diocese. It was a big talking point on a lot of local radio stations here.


#11

Here’s an article about Pope Benedict’s comments to Archbishop Aquila:

catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishop-aquila-receives-popes-praise-for-reordering-sacraments/


#12

[quote="Joe_5859, post:11, topic:315069"]
Here's an article about Pope Benedict's comments to Archbishop Aquila:

catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishop-aquila-receives-popes-praise-for-reordering-sacraments/

[/quote]

thank you Joe


#13

[quote="aidanbradypop, post:1, topic:315069"]
Here is n article from Archbishop Aquila while he was Bishop of the Diocese of Fargo (where I live).

ncregister.com/daily-news/bishop-aquila-confirmation-should-be-received-before-first-communion

What are your thoughts on it? I am in favor of doing Confirmation before First Communion.

[/quote]

For 9 years, from 1999 to 2008, our diocese did this. Then our diocese was merged with another that confirmed in grade 10 and the compromise was Confirmation at some point between grade 6 and grade 10. In theory, I suppose parents could present their child for the sacrament in grade 6 if they've prepared them, but what if the Pastor decides that in his parish he'll only allow grade 10 students to prepare?

This year will be the first year since the merger that we've offered preparation for Confirmation since all those in grade 6 for the last 4 years had already been confirmed in grade 1 or 2.

The only downside to Confirmation before Communion is that for many parents their child's Confirmation is also their child's graduation from religious education. I hate the thought that those children will remain with their grade 2 understanding of the faith because their parents will never seek more for them.


#14

I am remembering what I heard on a Catholic Answers radio podcast the other day on Dogma, Doctrine, and Discipline (originally aired on Feb. 8, 2013), so I may have the incorrect Pope Pius, but I am sure about my recollection of the reason. The age was changed because of the Pope's desire for everyone to receive the Blessed Sacrament as soon as possible. I think it was Pope St. Pius X. This was discussed in the context of how Disciplines can be - and have been - changed over the course of the history of the church.

There are sources that discuss the requirements for the proper age for receiving Holy Communion and give a bit of background at vatican.va. I found them by doing a quick search, and wish I could be more helpful by pasting them here for you, but I don't know how to copy and paste text or insert links on an iPad. :blush:


#15

[quote="JoyfulRC, post:14, topic:315069"]
I am remembering what I heard on a Catholic Answers radio podcast the other day on Dogma, Doctrine, and Discipline (originally aired on Feb. 8, 2013), so I may have the incorrect Pope Pius, but I am sure about my recollection of the reason. The age was changed because of the Pope's desire for everyone to receive the Blessed Sacrament as soon as possible. I think it was Pope St. Pius X. This was discussed in the context of how Disciplines can be - and have been - changed over the course of the history of the church.

There are sources that discuss the requirements for the proper age for receiving Holy Communion and give a bit of background at vatican.va. I found them by doing a quick search, and wish I could be more helpful by pasting them here for you, but I don't know how to copy and paste text or insert links on an iPad. :blush:

[/quote]

It was Pius X who brought in a younger age to receive. But for years afterwards Confirmation was conferred the next time the bishop came to the parish. It seems to me that the age for Confirmation started creeping up around the mid to late 60s to finally reach the ridiculous late teens that we see now in many places. An effort to keep kids in religious ed as long as possible has only succeeded in withholding from them the Grace of the sacrament, a Grace thy are surely in need of long before they are16 or 17.


#16

I believe the order of the Sacraments should be restored.


#17

Diocese of Fargo stated in the July/August 2011 issue of New Earth, that the children "receive first reconciliation in their parishes when they are in second grade. When they are in third grade, they receive both confirmation and first Eucharist during a Mass celebrated by the bishop".

So second grade first Confession is about age 7-8. They wait one more year for sacraments of Confirmation and first Eucharist age 8-9.

1) From apostolic times until about the fifth century, for the Latin Church, the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation were given in one continuous rite of initiation, which culminated in a Christian's admission to the Eucharist. This is still a norm in eastern churches, including eastern Catholic ritual churches.

2) In the Middle Ages (5th-13th centuries) Baptism and First Eucharist were administered together at infancy, with a later Confirmation by the bishop in very early childhood.

3) During the thirteenth to sixteenth century, infant Baptism was the norm but Confirmation was celebrated at the age of discretion (seven), with First Eucharist between the ages of ten and fourteen.

4) By the sixteenth century until the nineteenth century infant baptism was the norm, Confirmation was between seven and fifteen years, followed by First Eucharist.

5) In modern times infant baptism, First Eucharist at the age of discretion, and Confirmation between seven and eighteen became common.

6) The restored order for children is similar to that of the sixteenth century, but early, and for adults, RCIA, is like apostolic times, so it is not a full restoration to before the fifth century.

1) BCE
2) BE...C
3) B...C...E
4) B...CE
5) B...E...C
6) B...CE

americancatholicpress.org...ur_Spirit.html __________________


#18

[quote="babochka, post:9, topic:315069"]
I would imagine throughout Europe the situation is similar to that in the US. .

[/quote]

There at least two dioceses in England , the Diocese of Salford and the Archdiocese of Liverpool were the order of the Sacraments of Initiation is Baptism , Confirmation and finally Holy Communion .


#19

[quote="petronus, post:18, topic:315069"]
There at least two dioceses in England , the Diocese of Salford and the Archdiocese of Liverpool were the order of the Sacraments of Initiation is Baptism , Confirmation and finally Holy Communion .

[/quote]

Most of Europe follows the traditional order......Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist. Why is it that the Americans keep getting it wrong? :rolleyes:


#20

[quote="UncleBill, post:19, topic:315069"]
Why is it that the Americans keep getting it wrong? :rolleyes:

[/quote]

Ask your bishops .


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