MERGED: No more tropes for Agnus Dei


#1

praytellblog.com/index.php/2012/10/04/no-more-agnus-dei-tropes/

"In response to a request from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, the USCCB Administrative Committee adopted a change on September 12, 2012 to the U.S. Bishops’ 2007 guidelines on liturgical music, Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship. Number 188 of the document has been altered to remove any further permission for the use of Christological tropes or other adaptations to the text of the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God)."


#2

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:1, topic:300772"]
praytellblog.com/index.php/2012/10/04/no-more-agnus-dei-tropes/

"In response to a request from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, the USCCB Administrative Committee adopted a change on September 12, 2012 to the U.S. Bishops’ 2007 guidelines on liturgical music, Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship. Number 188 of the document has been altered to remove any further permission for the use of Christological tropes or other adaptations to the text of the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God)."

[/quote]

Thank goodness! Now we can finally know that they are illicit, and not worry about people throwing around this document that has no authority.


#3

Not that tropes are anything new of course. They have been around for a while and were pretty much stamped out after Trent, I believe. The kyries were troped; the subtitles of the Kyriales in the Graduale Romanum are actually the titles of the tropes.

Here's an example, Orbis Factor:

Orbis Factor by Ensemble Organum

Pity, quite beautiful with undertones from the Eastern tradition. Not all standardization has been good.


#4

[quote="OraLabora, post:3, topic:300772"]
Not that tropes are anything new of course. They have been around for a while and were pretty much stamped out after Trent, I believe. The kyries were troped; the subtitles of the Kyriales in the Graduale Romanum are actually the titles of the tropes.

Here's an example, Orbis Factor:

Orbis Factor by Ensemble Organum

Pity, quite beautiful with undertones from the Eastern tradition. Not all standardization has been good.

[/quote]

Actually, it's pretty cool that now in the OF, these tropes can now be used again! If only there was accessible music for them.


#5

[quote="OraLabora, post:3, topic:300772"]
Not that tropes are anything new of course. They have been around for a while and were pretty much stamped out after Trent, I believe. The kyries were troped; the subtitles of the Kyriales in the Graduale Romanum are actually the titles of the tropes.

Here's an example, Orbis Factor:

Orbis Factor by Ensemble Organum

Pity, quite beautiful with undertones from the Eastern tradition. Not all standardization has been good.

[/quote]

Yes, the Kyrie Orbis Factor is ridiculously beautiful. But I feel that if tropes are going to be allowed--which, as we see from this statement and from post-Tridentine history, they are not--they should be standardized by season, celebration, rank of the day, or something. I feel there is nothing wrong inherently with having these kinds of things, but if they are done, they should be standardized. But then we have to take into consideration the fact that it would probably be prohibitive to have even more changing parts of the Mass for parishes with low musical resources, and so I prefer these things not be allowed. Although I do wish the troped Requiem Agnus Dei be allowed!

[quote="superamazingman, post:4, topic:300772"]
Actually, it's pretty cool that now in the OF, these tropes can now be used again! If only there was accessible music for them.

[/quote]

:confused: I am not aware of such an allowance.


#6

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:5, topic:300772"]
:confused: I am not aware of such an allowance.

[/quote]

One of the formulas for the penitential rite in the OF is essentially a troped Kyrie:

Vel:

6.Sacerdos fideles invitat ad actum pænitentialem:

Fratres, agnoscámus peccáta nostra, ut apti simus ad sacra mystéria celebránda.

Fit brevis pausa silentii.Postea sacerdos, vel diaconus vel alius minister, sequentes, velalias, invocationes cum Kýrie, eléison profert:

Qui missus es sanáre contrítos corde: Kýrie, eléison.

Populus respondet:

Kýrie, eléison.

Sacerdos:

Qui peccatóres vocáre venísti: Christe, eléison.

Populus:
Christe, eléison.

Sacerdos:

Qui ad déxteram Patris sedes, ad interpellándum pro nobis:Kýrie, eléison.

Populus:

Kýrie, eléison.

Sequitur absolutio sacerdotis:

Misereátur nostri omnípotens Deuset, dimíssis peccátis nostris,perdúcat nos ad vitam ætérnam.


#7

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:1, topic:300772"]
praytellblog.com/index.php/2012/10/04/no-more-agnus-dei-tropes/

"In response to a request from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, the USCCB Administrative Committee adopted a change on September 12, 2012 to the U.S. Bishops’ 2007 guidelines on liturgical music, Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship. Number 188 of the document has been altered to remove any further permission for the use of Christological tropes or other adaptations to the text of the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God)."

[/quote]

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

No more sheepless Agnus Dei!


#8

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:5, topic:300772"]
:confused: I am not aware of such an allowance.

[/quote]

Have you ever heard a priest or deacon say this formula?

You were sent to heal the contrite,
Lord Have mercy, Lord have mercy.

You came to call sinners,
Christ have mercy, Christ have mercy.

You plead for us at the right hand of the Father,
Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy.

It's quite common, and if you think about it, it's really the same thing as the old troped kyries.


#9

Does this apply to the EF as well? Not that I have ever heard a troped Agnus dei in the EF.


#10

[quote="TrueLight, post:9, topic:300772"]
Does this apply to the EF as well? Not that I have ever heard a troped Agnus dei in the EF.

[/quote]

no, no, no, I should have been more clear. Both discussions, (troped kyries and troped agnus deis) really only apply to OF. Adding a trope to either in the EF is illicit, and in the OF, adding a trope to the agnus dei is illicit.


#11

[quote="superamazingman, post:10, topic:300772"]
no, no, no, I should have been more clear. Both discussions, (troped kyries and troped agnus deis) really only apply to OF. Adding a trope to either in the EF is illicit, and in the OF, adding a trope to the agnus dei is illicit.

[/quote]

I see. Thanks.


#12

This is wonderful. Really, it is. Consistency is beautiful.


#13

So.. umm is a troped Agnus Dei ever heard in an OF?


#14

[quote="TrueLight, post:13, topic:300772"]
So.. umm is a troped Agnus Dei ever heard in an OF?

[/quote]

It's far too common, even though it's never ever been licit.


#15

[quote="TrueLight, post:13, topic:300772"]
So.. umm is a troped Agnus Dei ever heard in an OF?

[/quote]

Ugh, you have no idea. Music "ministers" who think "Lamb of God" is boring like to replace it with things like

Jesus:
"Light of the World"/"King of Kings"/"Bread of Life"/"Prince of Peace"/"Word made Flesh"/etc.

This was really common in Churches before the translation change.


#16

[quote="jilly4ski, post:15, topic:300772"]
Ugh, you have no idea. Music "ministers" who think "Lamb of God" is boring like to replace it with things like

Jesus:
"Light of the World"/"King of Kings"/"Bread of Life"/"Prince of Peace"/"Word made Flesh"/etc.

This was really common in Churches before the translation change.

[/quote]

Your first sentence is quite offensive.

I'm not performing at mass...so the best word I have for it is minister. Music minister.

and I didn't replace the words because I thought Lamb of God was boring. I did it because when I first started playing for mass, that's what the music said. I didn't know better. And I'll bet lots of people just assumed it was a litany since its the same words over and over, and in litanies you change a phrase each time.

Your judgement into the hearts of those working/volunteering to play music needs to dial down... a lot.


#17

[quote="jilly4ski, post:15, topic:300772"]
Ugh, you have no idea. Music "ministers" who think "Lamb of God" is boring like to replace it with things like

Jesus:
"Light of the World"/"King of Kings"/"Bread of Life"/"Prince of Peace"/"Word made Flesh"/etc.

This was really common in Churches before the translation change.

[/quote]

And it still is happening now, even after the translation change in some places.


#18

[quote="agapewolf, post:16, topic:300772"]
Your first sentence is quite offensive.

I'm not performing at mass...so the best word I have for it is minister. Music minister.

and I didn't replace the words because I thought Lamb of God was boring. I did it because when I first started playing for mass, that's what the music said. I didn't know better. And I'll bet lots of people just assumed it was a litany since its the same words over and over, and in litanies you change a phrase each time.

Your judgement into the hearts of those working/volunteering to play music needs to dial down... a lot.

[/quote]

This is true, not everyone is the same, I apologize. But you must know that some are that way. I certainly know about ignorance of music matters (I grew up in a charismatic parish were we heard none of the traditional music). I should have specified that I was referring to paid music directors who should know these things.

I personally know a few, who do this and things like this at mass because they think the things they have been singing for years are boring. One in particular thinks that mass is like a concert every week to show off the songs the choir knows, rather than add to the worship of the congregation.


#19

I still hear it quite frequently. The ones that do it 3 times aren't so bad, since I've heard ones that will do it over, and over, and over, and over, even going into different languages. Hopefully this news gets spread and is listened to.


#20

[quote="smndtupidisaftr, post:19, topic:300772"]
I still hear it quite frequently. The ones that do it 3 times aren't so bad, since I've heard ones that will do it over, and over, and over, and over, even going into different languages. Hopefully this news gets spread and is listened to.

[/quote]

Actually, more than three is ok. It's just the tropes that are not allowed.


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