MERGED Posthumous Mormon Baptisms


#1

news.yahoo.com/mormons-apologize-baptism-wiesenthal-kin-212047532.html


#2

Romney needs the Jewish vote.


#3

I would be angry if I found out that I was going to be baptized by a Mormon after my death too. I don't want to be posthumously baptized by a Mormon and I hope and pray that I am not. I believe that the baptism I received in 2005 was sufficient.


#4

[quote="Jim_Dandy, post:1, topic:274078"]
news.yahoo.com/mormons-apologize-baptism-wiesenthal-kin-212047532.html

[/quote]

I don't think that it makes sense to ask the LDS Church to apologize or stop because they feel that what they are doing is a charitiable thing which allows someone to get to a higher heaven.

I also wouldn't waste time being upset about what they are doing because *what they are doing is completely ineffectual. *

The reality is that everyone on earth, while they are living, has an opportunity to accept God, enter His true Church and become saved via the Sacrament of Baptism and those who truly don't have that opportunity in life may still be saved via the abundant mercy of God who knows and judges correctly the hearts of men.

**What the LDS Church is doing a huge waste of their own time and energy, but it has absolutely zero affect on anyone. **But they won't stop unless...they individually come to the knowledge of and accept the truth.


#5

I personally think that the Mormons should be required to get permission from family members before they go and posthumously baptize some dead person.


#6

From this link:
Since 1840, the Mormon Church has sought to gather the names of every person who ever lived and offer their souls the choice of baptism so that they might enter the Kingdom of God. For the last two decades, Jewish groups have sought to keep Jewish names exempt, and there have been several agreements reached with the church since 1995, only to have the problem reappear.
I guess someone keeps crossing his fingers behind his back or something :shrug:


#7

[quote="ComeHome2Rome, post:4, topic:274078"]
I don't think that it makes sense to ask the LDS Church to apologize or stop because they feel that what they are doing is a charitiable thing which allows someone to get to a higher heaven.

I also wouldn't waste time being upset about what they are doing because *what they are doing is completely ineffectual. *

The reality is that everyone on earth, while they are living, has an opportunity to accept God, enter His true Church and become saved via the Sacrament of Baptism and those who truly don't have that opportunity in life may still be saved via the abundant mercy of God who knows and judges correctly the hearts of men.

**What the LDS Church is doing a huge waste of their own time and energy, but it has absolutely zero affect on anyone. **But they won't stop unless...they individually come to the knowledge of and accept the truth.

[/quote]

While I disagree with the conclusions of this post the logic is at least consistent. If I were Catholic (or any other religion) this is how I would view LDS ordinance work for the dead.

I have been trying to understand the animosity surrounding this issue but have a hard time seeing why anyone from another religion would consider it anything more than a whole lot of LDS people wasting a whole lot of time.


#8

[quote="ComeHome2Rome, post:4, topic:274078"]
I don't think that it makes sense to ask the LDS Church to apologize or stop because they feel that what they are doing is a charitiable thing which allows someone to get to a higher heaven.

I also wouldn't waste time being upset about what they are doing because *what they are doing is completely ineffectual. *

The reality is that everyone on earth, while they are living, has an opportunity to accept God, enter His true Church and become saved via the Sacrament of Baptism and those who truly don't have that opportunity in life may still be saved via the abundant mercy of God who knows and judges correctly the hearts of men.

**What the LDS Church is doing a huge waste of their own time and energy, but it has absolutely zero affect on anyone. **But they won't stop unless...they individually come to the knowledge of and accept the truth.

[/quote]

It is a matter of Principal


#9

[quote="Janderich, post:7, topic:274078"]
While I disagree with the conclusions of this post the logic is at least consistent. If I were Catholic (or any other religion) this is how I would view LDS ordinance work for the dead.

I have been trying to understand the animosity surrounding this issue but have a hard time seeing why anyone from another religion would consider it anything more than a whole lot of LDS people wasting a whole lot of time.

[/quote]

It is the principal of it. I dislike anyone doing to me or my family without our consent.


#10

[quote="Janderich, post:7, topic:274078"]
While I disagree with the conclusions of this post the logic is at least consistent. If I were Catholic (or any other religion) this is how I would view LDS ordinance work for the dead.

I have been trying to understand the animosity surrounding this issue but have a hard time seeing why anyone from another religion would consider it anything more than a whole lot of LDS people wasting a whole lot of time.

[/quote]

And I would be one of those people. My baptism left an indelible mark on my soul and therefore a Mormon baptism is completely ineffectual (I can't be baptized twice even if I believed Mormon baptism to be valid, which I don't). I certainly don't ask a family for permission to pray for their deceased members in order to release them from purgatory. I see no difference, really.


#11

[quote="SteveVH, post:10, topic:274078"]
And I would be one of those people. My baptism left an indelible mark on my soul and therefore a Mormon baptism is completely ineffectual (I can't be baptized twice even if I believed Mormon baptism to be valid, which I don't). I certainly don't ask a family for permission to pray for their deceased members in order to release them from purgatory. I see no difference, really.

[/quote]

If they want to pray for me, fine. But a baptism is a more personal thing. Should be consented to.


#12

Mormons are asked to only submit names from within their family line. However, the church has not completely figured out a way to safeguard this policy. As a Mormon myself, it is interesting to me that this issue ensures that the jews are the last to be baptized. Thus partially fulfilling Christs statement that the last shall be first and the first shall be last.

Once you have done some geneology, you realize that our family lines cross so completely that sooner or later everyone is considered a legitimate relative to a Mormon. Here is a piece of an article I found on the internet:

President George W. Bush, he is descended from Charlemagne, William "the Conqueror", and numerous English kings. Both President George H. W. Bush and his son George W. Bush also share a common Spencer ancestry with presidents George Washington, Calvin Coolidge, and Warren Harding as well as with Princess Diana and Sir Winston Churchill. Bush and his son also are descended from Mayflower passengers John Howland and Elizabeth Tilley. Bush and his son George W. Bush are also descended from Anne Hutchinson, who migrated and helped found the colony of Rhode Island after being banned from the Massachusetts Bay Colony because of her religious beliefs. Bush and his son also share a common Beekman ancestry with Eleanor Roosevelt and presidents Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin D. Roosevelt. President Bush and his son also share a common descent from Lucas Vanderburgh with President Gerald Ford. Also, President Bush and his son share a common descent from John Warren with President Garfield. Finally, President George H. W. Bush and his son George W. Bush both share a common descent from early New England settler Samuel Hinckley with President Barack Obama.

It is almost miraculous how we can find common ancesters between us if we just look a little. And it is not very far back.


#13

[quote="Janderich, post:7, topic:274078"]
While I disagree with the conclusions of this post the logic is at least consistent. If I were Catholic (or any other religion) this is how I would view LDS ordinance work for the dead.

I have been trying to understand the animosity surrounding this issue but have a hard time seeing why anyone from another religion would consider it anything more than a whole lot of LDS people wasting a whole lot of time.

[/quote]

Yes I've noticed the LDS inability to see things from someone else's perspective and empathize.


#14

John Paul II was asked if LDS baptisms were valid. His reply "negative". To be a Christian, belief in the Trinity & that Jesus is God would be mandatory.


#15

[quote="SteveVH, post:10, topic:274078"]
And I would be one of those people. My baptism left an indelible mark on my soul and therefore a Mormon baptism is completely ineffectual (I can't be baptized twice even if I believed Mormon baptism to be valid, which I don't). I certainly don't ask a family for permission to pray for their deceased members in order to release them from purgatory. I see no difference, really.

[/quote]

I'm with SteveVH on this one. I can understand former Mormons who have left the LDS church being a little more sensitive about it. But IMO, post-mortem baptisms and "sealings" have about as much practical and theological import as the "dinner" my 20-month-old son had with one of our neighbor's kids during the Super Bowl. They sat at a miniature table, passed mismatched plates back and forth and "drank" from empty plastic cups. It was a truly empty ritual, with zero impact on anyone, anywhere.

It sounds rude, but from a Catholic prospective, what happens in LDS temples is no different. The people are older and the rituals are more elaborate*. But at the end of the day, it's just people passing around mismatched plates and drinking from empty cups. Why should I care what they do in my name? Have at it, Mormons. Nothing you could ever do will have the slightest possible effect on my salvation.

What I do take issue with, however, is the repeated, hilariously unconvincing denials that there is any kind of organized effort on the part of the LDS church to baptize and "seal" non-Mormons who have zero ancestral connections to the LDS faith. Like I said in the other thread, Mormons would have us believe that the post-mortem baptisms of Holocaust victims, ex-Popes, prominent saints, etc were simply the result of individual Mormons making an isolated mistake over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. They pointedly ignore ex-Mormons who say, "Yeah, my parents used to enter Catholic parish records into the LDS database for hours upon hours and days upon days." Honestly, that's a million times more insulting to my intelligence (and, by extension, me) than any ritual they could possibly perform without my consent.

I mean, come on... enough people can submit Karol Wojtyla's name to LDS databases that he get baptized "six or seven times" by various LDS temples, but no one running any of those databases ever thought to flag the name "Karol Wojtyla" for further scrutiny before approving proxy temple work? Come on...

Like I said, I find the notion that they think we're all dumb enough to buy those excuses far, far more insulting than post-mortem baptisms for non-Mormons.

(* - and, to be fair, completely heretical - which I guess is a pretty big difference.)


#16

This is really making a mountain out of a molehill.


#17

I remember when I first heard about this. When I asked a Mormon I know, she denied they practice it.


#18

[quote="Janderich, post:7, topic:274078"]
I have been trying to understand the animosity surrounding this issue but have a hard time seeing why anyone from another religion would consider it anything more than a whole lot of LDS people wasting a whole lot of time.

[/quote]

Exactly. If they "baptize" me after my death, what effect will it have? None at all.


#19

It is insulting to the memory of people who died for another faith to try and attach them to Mormonism in their death. That is why people don't appreciate this.

Regarding Wojtyla, when I searched for names in the IDI on the other thread, he didn't seem to be there, but his parents are. I am wondering if, sensitive to criticism, they aren't starting to back-pedal on this and maybe clean up the more egregious examples?


#20

[quote="Zundrah, post:17, topic:274078"]
I remember when I first heard about this. When I asked a Mormon I know, she denied they practice it.

[/quote]

Oh my heck, it's Zundrah! Welcome back. :)


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