Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David

Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David

The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the dramatic epic of two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. The drama that culminated in the “death” of Messiah ben Joseph for the sins of Messiah ben David. Properly speaking, Messiah ben Joseph is Ephraim or Israel, the Ten Tribes of the Northern Kingdom. And Messiah ben David is Judah, the Southern Kingdom.

The sins of Judah had filled the Divine cup, and in God’s judgment, the day had arrived for the removal of Judah. (Isa. 9:8) But according to I Kings 11:36, God had promised David that Judah, whose Tribe he had come from, would stay as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. Therefore, according to Isaiah 9:8, the final judgment that was supposed to come upon Judah fell upon Israel instead, and Messiah ben Joseph had to go instead of Judah, or Messiah ben David.

But Isaiah says in 53:9 that the Suffering Servant was without guile, and sinless. That’s exactly what Israel was: Pure of the sins he died for, since they were the sins of Judah and not his. Messiah ben Joseph therefore, did not die for his sins but for the sins of Messiah ben David. Therefore, Israel was removed because of the sins of another. He was pierced so to speak, by the sins of Judah. The sacrifice of Israel or Messiah ben Joseph meant the salvation of Judah or Messiah ben David. That’s why Zechariah in 12:10 says that they (Judah) shall look upon him (Israel) whom they (Judah) had pierced with their sins, and mourn for him (Israel) as the one who mourns for his firstborn.

Now, let me explain by way of an analogy how Israel, or Messiah ben Joseph, who was the Suffering Servant died innocent of the sins of Judah or Messiah ben David:

“A” and “B”. “A” has committed a crime punishable with death, and “B”, by mistake was condemned for that crime. It doesn’t matter how evil is “B” in his life or how bad are his sins. The point is that he was condemned to die for the crime of “A”. Therefore “B” was killed innocent and pure of the crimes and sins of “A”. “A” got saved by the death of “B”. So, “B” was the Suffering Servant that brought salvation to “A”. Now matching the analogy to reality, “A” was Judah that pierced “B” with his crimes and sins.

Now, with the removal of Messiah ben Joseph, according to Psalm 78:67-70, Messiah be David occupied the place of Messiah ben Joseph, but as the Triumphant Servant with reference to the rest of Mankind, because of God’s promise to Noah that humanity would never be destroyed again in an universal manner. (Gen. 8:21) The People-redeemer was the pledge and on his way in the near future with the choice of Abraham through Isaac. That’s what sustains the world and allows it to keep going. Now, there is a small detail worthy keeping in mind. The blood of the Suffering Servant was shed once and for all. Now, Mankind is kept safe with the existence of Judah, the Triumphant Servant, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37.

Ben

Ben,
I suppose the picture you have in your mind from these passages works for you and for those you associate with. But there is a much more logical explanation, and it works for me and for those I associate with from the tribe of Ephraim, ben Joseph. The Messiah came through the tribe of Judah, and saves Judah, Joseph, and all the other tribes plus a large number of Gentiles of whom it is asked, “who hath begotten me these?”

**All right, so open your Bible at Psalms 78:67-70 and tell me if God rejected Judah and chose Judah. Does it make sense to you? I didn’t think so. God rejected the Tent of Joseph, which is Ephraim or Messiah ben Joseph, and confirmed the choice of Judah to remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever according to His promise to David in I Kings 11:36. That’s where Judah got the pseudonym of Messiah ben David. **

Ben,
I agree that Judah is a chosen people, and that David is a son of promise forever. The Messiah ben David makes sense to me.
Psalms 78:67-70 does make sense to me, as does Psalm 77:14-15

Thou art the God that doest wonders: thou hast declared thy strength among the people.
15 Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph.

1 Kings 11:36 makes sense to me also. David and Judah receive a promised heritage, but the ten tribes also receive a promise as reiterated in the book of Hosea:

Hosea 1: 10 ¶ Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

Ben,
You will also remember Genesis 48 and 49. We have in 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Then, in Genesis 49:22 ¶ Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

The seed of Joseph and of Ephraim were prophesied to become a multitude of nations, who will turn back to the Lord their God and to David their King in the latter days, according to Hosea. All of this makes very clear sense to me.

Thankyou Ben your post always fasinate me. I can see how you come to your conclusions…Didn’t God’s anger turn on Judah after the slaying of the last richous king Josiah at Meggiddo in 2 Kings 23:26-30? Is this not why Jerusalem feel in 586 B.C.?

Ben,
Read also Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13 ¶ Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

This passage involves both the preserved of Israel and the Gentiles, of whom I think Isaiah was also speaking when he wrote:

21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

I hope you may think about these passages of scripture. Peace to you.

this chapter is about Yeshua , the Jewish messiah not the tribes of israel.

How does it feel to know that an italian has your precious messiah and you dont?

The messiah was to come to the gentiles and he has . He lives in our hearts . He gives me peace, He works signs and wonders among us.

Yeshua …The messiah was first to come as a suffering servant then as the lion of judah.

Ive been ingrafted in because some other Jewish people probably rejected him.... Im so happy to have yeshua!!! Hes my Jewish Messiah, He's also God!

**If you read again the last verse above (v. 22), God through Isaiah is speaking to Judah whose children or descendants in the long run will be carried back after the exile to the Land of Israel. So, the very beginning of your post, God is speaking to His servant Israel to raise himself with all the Tribes as one by serving as light to the Gentiles in the process. Isaiah would not contradict himself so blatantly here, and then in 42:6 declare clearly that Israel has been assigned as light unto the Gentiles. **

I am sorry but we are not talking about the same person. I am talking about a man who was called Jesus and was Jewish; you are talking about a Greek god. In Judaism there is not room for Greek Mythology. Try again from another angle.

Ben, your posts are fabulous.

**As a matter of fact, after the death of King Josiah, the Kingdom of Judah did step into a phase of delapidation with several small kings who ended up with Nebukkadnezzar, the king of Babylon coming over and destroying the Temple, which caused the fall of Judah. Yes, I guess we can metaphorically say that God’s anger had turned on Judah. **

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