How do I respond to this? Methodist neigbor said this about celibacy!
[FONT=Arial]Celibacy has always been a mistake. And the tradition of celibate priests is not even close to 2,000 years old.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]You know darn well that the celibate priesthood was initiated solely as a means to prevent Papal offspring from inheriting the plundered wealth of the Roman church, at the time when the church was essentially the biggest government with the strongest economy in Europe.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Catholic priests married and had children for hundreds of years before the whole absurd crock of celibacy got forced down your throats.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]In a church that condones gay-hating, the priesthood is a safe place to hide your queers…until they get caught with a kid in the confessional.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]That was another cheap shot. Actually, one that in the real world is proving to be quite expensive. Maybe we should be discussing BANKRUPT churches…[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]So put that in your pope and smoke it![/FONT]
I notice that General Motors has a real problem with the children of its employees inheriting the employees’ offices, company cars, parking spaces and other GM property, so I can see where that would have been a problem with the Church as well.
The only way to respond to something like that is to tell your neighbor that you will not respond to such outright lies and insults. Anyone who really believes all that is too far gone for anything you have to say to make a difference.
Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church’s practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.
1 Cor 7:1 – Paul teaches that it is well for a man not to touch a woman. This is the choice that the Catholic priests of the Roman rite freely make.
1 Cor. 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.
1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.
1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”
1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church’s celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church’s Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.
1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church’s practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).
1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.
2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Paul instructs his bishop Timothy that no soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim his to satisfy the One who enlisted him. Paul is using an analogy to describe the role of the celibate priesthood in the Church.
Rev. 14:4 - unlike our sinful world of the flesh, in heaven, those consecrated to virginity are honored.
I think St. Ambrose gives good advice for dealing with such folks:
"To avoid dissensions we should be ever on our guard, more especially with those who drive us to argue with them, with those who vex and irritate us, and who say things likely to excite us to anger. When we find ourselves in company with quarrelsome, eccentric individuals, people who openly and unblushingly say the most shocking things, difficult to put up with, we should take refuge in silence, and the wisest plan is not to reply to people whose behavior is so preposterous.
Those who insult us and treat us contumeliously are anxious for a spiteful and sarcastic reply: the silence we then affect disheartens them, and they cannot avoid showing their vexation; they do all they can to provoke us and to elicit a reply, but the best way to baffle them is to say nothing, refuse to argue with them, and to leave them to chew the cud of their hasty anger."
google “married priests” and you will find that there are in fact modern “married priests” in the catholic church. Also, ask him what Jesus said about eunuchs?
For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
ask him to provide historical documentation from the church fathers themselves for his claims. Point out that “anti-catholic polemicial sources” holds no authority for you.
You can tell your neighbor for me that the practice of Christian celibacy is based on the words of Our Lord by which he proclaimed the virtue of chastity to be a Christian ideal and on e of the evangelical counsels: “Not all take in this saying, but they to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were made such by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves such for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He that can take this in, let him take it in” (Matthew 19: 11-12). Hence St. Paul teaches: “To the unmarried and to widows i say, it is good for them if they remain even as I . . . . He that is unmarried has a care for the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but he that is married has a care for the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is drawn in different ways . . . . Now this is I say for your own profit, not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for the sake of seemly and devoted and undistracted service of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 7: 8, 32, 33, 35)
18 He who conceals hatred has lying lips,
and he who utters slander is a fool.
19 When words are many, transgression is not lacking,
but he who restrains his lips is prudent."
1 Cor 11:1
11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ."
Pray for this person, because he is full of hatred and slander. Also, realize that if such a person prays the Lord’s prayer, he will bring condemnation upon himself, because he is asking God to forgive him “as we forgive our trespassors”. If such a man is so unforgiving of others faults (or perceived faults), then one will be burning in the fiery pit!
Tell your neighbor this: “I won’t respond to you until you learn some manners and start acting like an adult. After that I’d be happy to discuss the theological reasons for celibacy in the priesthood and whatever else you’d like to learn about.”
^Jabronie, that’s a far more charitable response than I would have made to this bigot. :mad:
I too am a former Methodist and would never have said or done what this guy is saying to you. If he keeps spouting at you and finding you as his convenient target, I’d almost go so far as to say you’ll file a restraining order if he keeps bothering you. Seriously, this guys use of “fags” and “queers”, etc. is nothing short of pure hate. People like that have an extremely short fuse, and you don’t want him literally going off on you. The others have some great responses, but keep this one in mind, too.
This is so silly it’s hard to know where to begin! Your friend is completely ignorant of the history of celibacy, which was an ideal for centuries long before it was made mandatory. And from whom had the eleventh-century Roman church plundered wealth? This makes no sense.
[FONT=Arial]Catholic priests married and had children for hundreds of years before the whole absurd crock of celibacy got forced down your throats.
No, they didn’t marry. Married people became priests. And technically they were not supposed to go on having sex, but they often did.
Does your neighbor think that the whole notion of celibacy as an ideal (not just as a discipline for diocesan priests) comes from the Middle Ages? If he/she is an educated person who can handle a difficult read, I would recommend Reading Renunciation by Elizabeth Clark (one of my professors in grad school). Clark is an ex-Christian feminist scholar, but she makes mincemeat of the notion that the New Testament and earliest Christianity is not ascetic. (This does not necessarily run against her bias, since she particularly has it in for mainline Protestantism, which is her background. But she is a very thorough and honest scholar.)