Methodists and the Real Presence


#1

I've heard that many Methodists believe in the Real Presence. They believe that their pastor can change the bread and grape juice into the Body and Blood of Christ. I know this can't be done because Protestants don't have valid Holy Orders (or don't have it at all). Would this be considered idolatry because they are worshiping bread?


#2

[quote="ajpirc, post:1, topic:237251"]
I've heard that many Methodists believe in the Real Presence. They believe that their pastor can change the bread and grape juice into the Body and Blood of Christ. I know this can't be done because Protestants don't have valid Holy Orders (or don't have it at all). Would this be considered idolatry because they are worshiping bread?

[/quote]

I am not a life-long Methodist, although I have belonged to a United Methodist church for almost 40 years. As Methodists we have a deep respect for the eucharistic sacrament. But in all those 40 years I have never heard anyone with authority in the Methodist system make the claim that the elements become the actual blood and body of Christ. Some individual Methodists may hold this belief, but I think they are few and far between.


#3

Ok. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


#4

This is strictly my opinion, but no, I don't think you can call this idolatry. After all, they don't concern themselves with Holy Orders, therefore they believe they have the real presence (those that do hold the belief - not all Methodists do). It is the intent of their hearts to worship Christ, not the bread. The heart's intentions are the foremost concern to God.


#5

No because the intent to worship the Lord is there.Even though they don't recieve the Real Presence and therefore missing the grace which comes from recieving the Sacrament the Lord would still honor the adoration if it was done out of ignorance.


#6

[quote="ajpirc, post:1, topic:237251"]
I've heard that many Methodists believe in the Real Presence. They believe that their pastor can change the bread and grape juice into the Body and Blood of Christ. I know this can't be done because Protestants don't have valid Holy Orders (or don't have it at all). Would this be considered idolatry because they are worshiping bread?

[/quote]

My grandparents are devout Methodists, and some of my closest friends are Methodist too, and I don't think a lot of Methodists. Have even heard of the idea of the real presence.
But I don't know, I'll ask my Methodist friend and see if she knows anyone who believes this.


#7

[quote="TeenageConvert, post:6, topic:237251"]
My grandparents are devout Methodists, and some of my closest friends are Methodist too, and I don't think a lot of Methodists. Have even heard of the idea of the real presence.
But I don't know, I'll ask my Methodist friend and see if she knows anyone who believes this.

[/quote]

When I was a student at Duke University Divinity School, where a majority of the students are Methodists, it was my experience that a considerable number of them believed in the real presence. To what extent they are representative of Methodists in general, I do not know.


#8

Jesus Christ, who "is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being" (Hebrews 1:3), is truly present in Holy Communion. Through Jesus Christ and in the power of the Holy Spirit, God meets us at the Table. God, who has given the sacraments to the church, acts in and through Holy Communion. Christ is present through the community gathered in Jesus' name (Matthew 18:20), through the Word proclaimed and enacted, and through the elements of bread and wine shared (1 Corinthians 11:23–26). The divine presence is a living reality and can be experienced by participants; it is not a remembrance of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion only. ~United Methodist Church

:signofcross:


#9

[quote="shark76z, post:8, topic:237251"]
:signofcross:

[/quote]

Christ present and Christ being the Bread and Wine are not the same thing :blush:


#10

Christ is present through the community gathered in Jesus' name (Matthew 18:20), through the Word proclaimed and enacted, and through the elements of bread and wine shared (1 Corinthians 11:23–26).

Christ is present - body, blood, soul, and divinity - under the appearance of bread and wine - confected by the priest, acting in the person of Christ using the words of Consecration. Whether there is a Word proclaimed or a community gatherd do not matter.

Good point, posting that quote.


#11

Though Christ is spiritually present in the community or the priest, he is physically present in the Blessed Sacrament.


#12

With respect to the Bugnini Quote, please consider this:

tanbooks.com/doct/vatican_liturgy.htm


#13

I was a Methodist for 40 years. I had never heard of the Real Presence until I started investigating the Catholic Church. Beliefs among Methodists can really vary and different Pastors cultivate different “cultures” within the church.


#14

[quote="Sharen, post:13, topic:237251"]
I was a Methodist for 40 years. I had never heard of the Real Presence until I started investigating the Catholic Church. Beliefs among Methodists can really vary and different Pastors cultivate different "cultures" within the church.

[/quote]

I didn't know this until tonight. My wife and I spent the better part of an hour learning about it.


#15

[quote="ajpirc, post:1, topic:237251"]
I've heard that many Methodists believe in the Real Presence. They believe that their pastor can change the bread and grape juice into the Body and Blood of Christ. I know this can't be done because Protestants don't have valid Holy Orders (or don't have it at all). Would this be considered idolatry because they are worshiping bread?

[/quote]

Actually, I've never heard of a Methodist who believes in the real presence, of course I could be wrong.

But assuming I am wrong, I don't think it would be considered idolatry, since they are not acting out of malice. They simply have the mistaken notion that they have valid holy orders.


#16

[quote="nightranger, post:15, topic:237251"]
Actually, I've never heard of a Methodist who believes in the real presence, of course I could be wrong.

But assuming I am wrong, I don't think it would be considered idolatry, since they are not acting out of malice. They simply have the mistaken notion that they have valid holy orders.

[/quote]

I assure you, from having spent five years at Duke University Divinity School, where Methodists make up a majority of both the faculty and the student body, there are Methodists who believe in the real presence. I have little doubt that they are in the minority, but they're out there.


#17

[quote="RyanBlack, post:16, topic:237251"]
I assure you, from having spent five years at Duke University Divinity School, where Methodists make up a majority of both the faculty and the student body, there are Methodists who believe in the real presence. I have little doubt that they are in the minority, but they're out there.

[/quote]

It would be enlightening to probe what they think the real presence means. I have heard some claim they believe in the real presence, but then introduce some words like "in a spiritual sense.". There are a lot of points to it.


#18

According to the United Methodist Church,

Jesus Christ, who "is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being" (Hebrews 1:3), is truly present in Holy Communion. Through Jesus Christ and in the power of the Holy Spirit, God meets us at the Table. God, who has given the sacraments to the church, acts in and through Holy Communion. Christ is present through the community gathered in Jesus' name (Matthew 18:20), through the Word proclaimed and enacted, and through the elements of bread and wine shared (1 Corinthians 11:23–26). The divine presence is a living reality and can be experienced by participants; it is more than a remembrance of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion.

The followers of John Wesley, the clergymen, have typically affirmed that the sacrament of Holy Communion is an instrumental Means of Grace through which the real presence of Christ is communicated to the believer, but have otherwise allowed the details to remain a mystery "Wiki-Pedia"


#19

[quote="GaryTaylor, post:18, topic:237251"]
According to the United Methodist Church,

Jesus Christ, who "is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being" (Hebrews 1:3), is truly present in Holy Communion. Through Jesus Christ and in the power of the Holy Spirit, God meets us at the Table. God, who has given the sacraments to the church, acts in and through Holy Communion. Christ is present through the community gathered in Jesus' name (Matthew 18:20), through the Word proclaimed and enacted, and through the elements of bread and wine shared (1 Corinthians 11:23–26). The divine presence is a living reality and can be experienced by participants; it is more than a remembrance of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion.

The followers of John Wesley, the clergymen, have typically affirmed that the sacrament of Holy Communion is an instrumental Means of Grace through which the real presence of Christ is communicated to the believer, but have otherwise allowed the details to remain a mystery "Wiki-Pedia"

[/quote]

archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1341


#20

Further on your quoted passage, not included.

Article VI of The Confession of Faith of The Evangelical United Brethren Church,*speaks...of the sacraments: “They are means of grace by which God works invisibly in us, quickening, strengthening and confirming our faith in him. . . . Those who rightly, worthily and in faith eat the broken bread and drink the blessed cup partake of the body and blood of Christ in a spiritual manner until he comes.”

"spiritual manner". See this what I was mentioning


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