Michael Voris & 'Church Militant' on Purgatory


#1

Hello all from New Zealand:)

I am a recent convert from Protestantism (Presbyterian & Baptist/Evangelical) and now fully embrace the Catholic Faith after a deep and difficult journey and will be confirmed in the near future.

While I accept all the Church’s teaching (otherwise I would not be Catholic) including purgatory - just happened to be up to 2 Maccabees 12 this morning in my daily reading of the seven wrongly removed books from the Canon - I watched this video last night:

Although Mr Voris seems to defend Orthodoxy, he and his ‘crew’ are pretty harsh, the woman on this episode and the rest commented that only those who are completely perfect go straight to heaven, and that most of us may have to spend millions of years in Purgatory - this extreme view seems to nullify the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. On the other hand EWTN and Catholic Answers have been both enlightening concerning the Truth but also full of the love of God.

Any comments are welcome.

Peace and God bless.


#2

As I understand it the majority of the saved will likely have to spend some time in Purgatory, but–

Millions of years? Where do they get that?


#3

I’m not aware of any church teaching that specifies how long one spends in purgatory. So take Mr. Boris with a grain of salt.


#4

I would rather spend millions of years in Purgatory than one second in Hell…but truthfully we probably don’t have the proper understanding of time passage in the afterlife to describe it.


#5

I’m not a fan of Voris by any means. He’s the epitome of self-righteous and exceptionally cruel to those he deems unworthy. I know people who have worked for him (because they adored him) and were shocked by the lengths he was willing to go to in shaming his detractors. I don’t know all of the details, but I do know that they became very anti-Voris and did not stay for their desired internship or volunteer time.

On a personal level, I find him repulsive. He comes off as judgmental, snarky, childish, and close minded. I feel like he is an incredibly poor example of Catholicism and would declare he doesn’t represent me if anyone asked.

The fact that he had the gall to try and comprehend and make a declaration about the length of Purgatory reeks of the same insolence and egotism that turned me off to him in the first place.


#6

I think there was a nun who once saw a vision of a dead Pope who was going to spend thousands od years in Purgatory for 3 venial sins. Take the average modern man who probably commits thousands of mortal sins in their lifetime and millions of years sounds about right.

I think Mary also mentioned some souls who would be in Purgatory until the end of time. But who knows right?

I think unless I somehow get martyred then I’ll probably be in Purgatory for millions of years lol. I have so many imperfections it will be a miracle if I’m even saved!

Rregardless we should always remember to pray for those in Purgatory! It is more painful than anything we can even imagine!


#7

Purgatory seems to be necessary if heaven is to be heavenly. When I think about people who died and I hope/think are heavenbound I know they all had some attachments to sin. If they went directly into heaven without any change then it would seem not to be heaven. I think we can all strive to be holy so we could fit right in.


#8

Mr. Boris is projecting his past sins onto everyone else. He may need to spend millions of years in Purgatory, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that “most” people will have to.


#9

In the video, they use a description that doesn’t square with Church teaching: they talk about expiating the guilt of past sin, explaining it as “temporal guilt due to sin.” That’s not quite correct.

They are correct that everything in heaven will be perfect. That makes sense, doesn’t it? But, as humans, we’re not perfect, right? So… something has to happen to get us to perfection, doesn’t it?

That’s all that ‘purgatory’ is… the process by which we are made perfect.

If we have unforgiven venial sins on our soul, they are expiated in the process. If there is any of the negative effect of sins (that had already been forgiven), then these effects are stripped away and we are made perfect. But, there is no “guilt” left of sins that had already been forgiven while we were alive on earth.

What’s the length of “time” in purgation? We can’t really answer that. In fact, before we might have a hope of answering it, we’d have to answer what “time” means outside the physical universe. (After all, ‘time’ is just the measure of change of physical things.) So, I don’t know that I can say that this process takes “one second” or “one million years,” if the whole notion of time doesn’t make sense in this context. At around the 20 minute mark in the video, Voris admits this: he admits that it isn’t really “time”, but that’s just one analogy that we can use to try to explain it. (Unfortunately, he then immediately goes off the rails and relates a story about “seven years for one venial sin.” sigh.)

The notion of purgation – properly explained – doesn’t “nullify” Jesus’ sacrifice, but rather, points to God’s mercy: even when we’re not perfect – but still have a relationship with Him – we, too, may attain to heaven!

p.s., just a silly question, for anyone to help me out with: how in the world could Voris have been a seminarian (long enough, ostensibly, to get into major seminary and earn an S.T.B.), but never encounter Psalm 51 until attending Mass and opening a hymnal years after leaving the seminary? I mean… Friday Morning Prayer, dude…!


#10

I’d take these stories with a huge grain of salt. A lot of these “I heard somewhere” stories are apocryphal. Or they’re heavily distorted like a game of telephone across the centuries. Or the nun was just wrong. I’d be very skeptical of definitive statements about the afterlife that the Church hasn’t investigated and deemed to be authentic.


#11

I also heard that each mortal sin confessed is seven years in purgatory…luckily we have the brown scapular!! Remember also that each year, the Sunday after Easter is Divine Mercy where if we confess and have communion all our sins and the punishment attached to them are wiped clean!


#12

Hi Bookworm77,
Welcome to the Church!

Stay away from Voris. He lives in his own world.

If you want to know more about Purgatory, read An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory. I ordered the paperback because I don’t like reading anything that long off of a computer screen. It was one of the most enlightening things I’ve read.

Background of the Manuscript
This manuscript contains very interesting statements about the life beyond the grave, particularly about Purgatory. The details are intermingled with much spiritual direction. Its authenticity is beyond doubt.>


#13

I don’t mind Michael Voris, or Church Militant. I have found some of their educational stuff useful in the past. But I can’t visit the site very much because the general air of the place can induce me to despair. Everything is presented as worst case scenario, and there is quite a lot of politics which I don’t enjoy.

As to purgatory, I’m still learning on that topic, but being purified before seeing God seems to me to be perfectly sensible. How long it would take I don’t know, but I am inclined to think that things like purgatory and heaven and hell are states rather than places, and the earthly rules of time and space do not apply.


#14

God is just, and so the punishments of Purgatory are also just. Certainly, everyone who goes to Purgatory does not deserve millions of years of punishment. Also, I think that expressions concerning the length of time a person spends in Purgatory are merely an analogy relating to the degree of punishment due. Purgatory is mainly for the purpose of changing to become ready for Heaven. Change can hurt, and can take time.

A Catholic who is far from perfect can go directly to Heaven if he or she makes a good confession, receives Communion devoutly, receives anointing of the sick, and receives the plenary indulgence available to the faithful at the hour of death (if they have frequently prayed during their lives).


#15

Check out this video.


#16

Hi and thank you all for your insightful and encouraging comments!:slight_smile:
It is the most exiting thing to be Catholic and it is a relief to communicate with fellow Catholics as I mostly knew Protestants and Atheist/Agnostics (often these people bounce between these false “options” - 2 Thessalonians 2:11) and people that believe amazingly that truth is relative and we all have our “own truths” - how insane and delusional - a cow is a cow - not a duck to some and a tractor to others…LOL

I don’t mind Michael Voris, or Church Militant. I have found some of their educational stuff useful in the past. But I can’t visit the site very much because the general air of the place can induce me to despair. Everything is presented as worst case scenario, and there is quite a lot of politics which I don’t enjoy.

I also found some of Mr Voris material to be very good initially but as others have mentioned one can feel a little ‘poisoned’ after too-much of this stuff. We must proclaim Truth but Philippians 4:8 is always relevant.

Hi Bookworm77,
Welcome to the Church!

Stay away from Voris. He lives in his own world.

If you want to know more about Purgatory, read An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory. I ordered the paperback because I don’t like reading anything that long off of a computer screen. It was one of the most enlightening things I’ve read.

Amazing I will read this - thanks!:slight_smile:

As to purgatory, I’m still learning on that topic, but being purified before seeing God seems to me to be perfectly sensible. How long it would take I don’t know, but I am inclined to think that things like purgatory and heaven and hell are states rather than places, and the earthly rules of time and space do not apply.

Amen - excellent point about the Eternal Realms versus the temporal one we are in now.

What’s the length of “time” in purgation? We can’t really answer that. In fact, before we might have a hope of answering it, we’d have to answer what “time” means outside the physical universe. (After all, ‘time’ is just the measure of change of physical things.) So, I don’t know that I can say that this process takes “one second” or “one million years,” if the whole notion of time doesn’t make sense in this context. At around the 20 minute mark in the video, Voris admits this: he admits that it isn’t really “time”, but that’s just one analogy that we can use to try to explain it. (Unfortunately, he then immediately goes off the rails and relates a story about “seven years for one venial sin.” sigh.)

Thank you, this clarified things a lot.

God is just, and so the punishments of Purgatory are also just. Certainly, everyone who goes to Purgatory does not deserve millions of years of punishment. Also, I think that expressions concerning the length of time a person spends in Purgatory are merely an analogy relating to the degree of punishment due. Purgatory is mainly for the purpose of changing to become ready for Heaven. Change can hurt, and can take time.

Amen also - we must embrace the pain and see the Greater Good.

A Catholic who is far from perfect can go directly to Heaven if he or she makes a good confession, receives Communion devoutly, receives anointing of the sick, and receives the plenary indulgence available to the faithful at the hour of death (if they have frequently prayed during their lives).

Thanks also this is much appreciated, Jimmy Akin says the same thing (excellent scholar):

All comments are appreciated not just the ones I quoted by the way:).
Will check out the Mother Angelica video - thanks!

Indulgences and also the Scapular are things I am investigating now.

Thankfully we are connected to God and the Saints now and living each day with the “broader canvas” of eternity before us, if we sincerely cultivate a deep love for God and people and have this as our primary motivator we are at least “on the right track”.

God bless!


#17

Umm… this is described, on the website link you provided, as “alleged conversations between a nun and a soul in Purgatory.”

Not what I’d call an authoritative resource. Nor, given the fact that it’s published anonymously, does it seem that we might give it any credibility.

I think I’d stick with Church teaching, rather than an anonymously published account of an alleged conversation… :man_shrugging:


#18

Well, the nun is anonymous. The convent and the priest, who was her spiritual director, are known. They are real people.


#19

T H E

S E C O N D

K I N G D O M

From the Mystical Revelations of Maria Valtorta

The Purifying Flames

JESUS :

"I want to explain to you what Purgatory is and in what it consists. And I explain it Myself, with a form that will clash with so many who believe themselves to be trustees of knowledge of the Beyond — and are not.

The souls immersed in those flames suffer only from love.

Not undeserving of possessing the Light, but not yet worthy of entering immediately into that Kingdom of Light, these souls, upon presenting themselves to God, become clothed with the Light. It is a brief, anticipated bliss, which makes them certain of their salvation, and makes known to them what their eternity will be. It makes them experience what they had committed toward their soul; thus defrauding it of years of the blessed possession of God. Immersed thereafter in the Place of Purgation, they are clothed with the expiatory flames.

In this matter, those who talk of ‘Purgatory’ speak rightly. But where they are not right is in wanting to apply various names to those flames.

These flames are a conflagration of Love. They purify by enkindling souls with love. They give Love because, when the soul has reached in them that love which it did not reach on earth, it is liberated and joined to Love in Heaven.

This seems to you a different doctrine than what is known — true? But reflect.

What does God, One and Triune, want for the souls created by Him? The Good.

He Who wants the Good for a creature, what sentiments does He have for that creature? Sentiments of Love.

What are the first and the second commandments, the two most important? Those of which I have said there are no greater, and in which are the keys for reaching Eternal Life? They are a commandment of love: ‘Love God with all your strength, love your neighbor as yourself.’

Through My own mouth and by the prophets and the saints, what have I said to you an infinite number of times? That Charity is the greatest of absolutions. Charity consumes the faults and the weaknesses of man, because he who loves lives in God, and by living in God he sins little; and if he sins he at once repents, and for him who is repentant there is the forgiveness of the Most High.

What is lacking to souls? Love. If they had loved much, they would have committed few and light sins, connected with your weakness and imperfections. But they would never have reached a conscious obstinacy in faults, even venial ones. If they would have striven not to grieve their Love, Love also, seeing their good will, would have absolved them even of the venial transgressions they committed.

How does one repair, even on earth, a fault? By expiating it — even if only with difficulty — through the means with which it was committed. He who has damaged something, by restoring whatever he has taken away with his insolence. He who has calumniated, by retracting the calumny, and so on.

Now: if poor human justice wants this, will not the holy Justice of God want it? And what means will God use to obtain reparation? Himself, that is, Love, and by exacting love.

All pivots on love, Maria, except for the truly ‘dead’: the damned. For these ‘dead,’ even Love is dead. But for the three Kingdoms — that of the heaviest: the Earth; that in which the weight of matter is abolished, but not of the soul burdened by sin: Purgatory; and finally that in which its inhabitants share with their Father the spiritual nature which frees them from every duty — for all three the motor is Love. It is by loving on earth that you work for Heaven. It is by loving in Purgatory that you conquer Heaven which in life you had not known how to merit. It is by loving in Paradise that you enjoy Heaven.

When a soul is in Purgatory it does not do anything but love, reflect, repent in the light of Love which has kindled for it these flames — which already are God, but which hide God from it for its punishment.

Behold the torment. The soul remembers the vision of God it had in its particular judgment. That memory is carried with it and, since to have even but glimpsed God is a joy which surpasses every created thing, the soul thus has anxiety to enjoy again that joy. That memory of God and that ray of light which had clothed it at its appearing before God, thus cause the soul to ‘see’ in their true essence the failures committed against its Good. And this ‘seeing,’ together with the thought that it has voluntarily forbidden itself the possession of Heaven and union with God for ages or centuries, constitute its purgative pain.

It is love, and the certainty of having offended Love, which is the torment of those being purged. The more a soul in life has failed, the more it is as if blinded by spiritual cataracts which make more difficult its knowing and reaching that perfect repentance of love which is the first collaboration with its purgation and its entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Love is weighed down and slowed down the more a soul has oppressed it with guilt. But as the power of Love cleanses it little by little, its resurrection to love is quickened and, in consequence, so is its conquest of Love — which is completed in the moment in which, having finished its expiation and reached the perfection of love, it is admitted into the City of God.

http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/2ndKngdm.html


Question about character limit on posts
#20

I too, typically stay away from Voris. Occasionally, he might have something interesting, but typically he’s always bashing someone.

According to Voris, even groups like EWTN & Catholic Answers have watered down the faith and all bishops (even good ones like Archbishop Chaput & and Bishop Barron) are bad.

In regards to the time we will spend in purgatory, it’s important to remember that both God and Heaven are outside space-time. So it’s possible that purgatory is outside of space-time too.

I read somewhere (can’t remember where) that God can use prayers from the future to help someone get to heaven.
For example:

let’s say your great-grandfather died 20 years before you were born. And let’s assume he entered heaven 1 week before you were born. And let’s assume that no one prayed for his soul after your great-grandmother died until you started praying for him when you were 40 years old.

Well, God can use the prayers you say for him 40 years, 1 month in the future to allow him to enter Heaven the month before you were born! So in this example: God uses 60 years of prayer to allow your Great-grandfather to enter heaven after 20 years of purgatory.

But then again, those 20 years of purgatory might feel like 20 hours or 20 days.

The truth is we have NO idea how time after death works and most likely all of the afterlife is outside space & time.

In closing, I would stay away from Voris and if you do listen to anything he produces, take it with a grain of salt.

God bless!


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