What about Paul? I see what you’re saying, though. I just think it’s not really a reason to say that Judas is in hell. After all, it’s up to God to decide who has what place in heaven. Still, an interesting theory.
Paul was never one of the 12 Apostles. He was the apostle to the gentiles, but he wasn’t one of the 12. He has his own special place.
Judas was one of the 12. And he was replaced by Mattias. None of the other Apostles, when they died, were replaced. They were succeeded, but not replaced.
You are correct though, the determination of the final state of Judas is God’s prerogative.
I doubt that Mr. Voris speaks for the church in any of his videos but he does lead one to scriptures that leads one to beleive that Judas is in hell.
Yes, exactly, so their elections have no bearing on Judas’ ultimate fate.
Thank you. :tiphat:
Jesus answered the question for us when he said it would have been better had he (Judas) never been born. Doesn’t exactly sound like a ringing endorsement that he would be rewarded with eternal life; to me it sounds the exact opposite.
Interesting things about Judas actions, and it is interesting that if some can feel sympathetic for Judas in some sense, isn’t God that is God, more loving that us, as He in fact is Love. His hope and faith and love are limitless, I don’t think we understand this correctly as it is kind of difficult, maybe saints do though (because we need to understand God (actingly) for this).
The words that it was better for him not to have been born are very harsh words. But I had a thought that Jesus wanted us to see that people can get so blinded with our own pleasures that they can do the worst things and don’t see it, even when they are told what’s going to happen (meaning even if we are warned). That’s why you can’t have two masters and you will serve where you put your treasures, I guess.
The other thing is, could Jesus be telling Judas how he was going to feel afterwards, in what kind of despair was he going to get into, and foreshadowing his own hanging in some sense. Because when you think about it, is there something that can cause you more despair than giving up God (when you finally realized it) to get sacrificed. Keep in mind that not even this merits suicide, as nothing merits the end of a life, as God is for saving them instead, as He paid His life, that’s how much He thinks our lives are worth. But that’s the problem of being in despair, you don’t see God, you stop seeing God. And that is the problem of sin, it makes you “not to see God” when you need it, so that you act accordingly.
Despair must be something so awful and terrifying, I would think it is indescribable, is losing hope and faith because you can’t feel otherwise, and we see that people commit suicide for much lesser things. But, the point, I guess is to know that not understanding (seeing) God can make you do very bad things, and not thinking you can change your act when realizing it, is not the way to go either, as it is doing what the first thing did (didn’t see God again, in hope) as God in a sense, can always make a right from a wrong.
I don’t think this passage is only about Judas. I think it is a statement about all who commit mortal sin, because that is just as much betraying Jesus as what Judas did. Woe to all who commit mortal sin, it would be better for them if they had not been born. But blessed are they when they repent, for it becomes better for them that they have been born.
Yes, I think this is a very candid passage about how mortal sin makes us betrayers of God. But I would have a hard time justifying much hope for a saint Judas in view of this passage. I think Our Lord knew exactly what He was saying about it being better he had not been born. There is only one thing that could mean. For if Judas spent 6 Billion years in purgatory before heaven, it would still be better that he be born…
Jim Blackburn has said that we cannot be certain Judas is in hell.
Weighing in on an interesting subject. I feel as though the Gospels do not encourage sympathy for Judas. It seems very much the opposite. Several on here have been examining the verse regarding “better he had not been born” but what about John 6:71: “Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil?” We’re told Judas didn’t care about the poor when he asked about the costly ointment, but that he was a thief. And then that Satan entered into him when he betrayed our Lord.
While the Gospels don’t explicitly say Judas went to hell, the implicit message is very strong that he did, and it seems his story is meant to be a model of warning to us. It’s one thing to say that God has the power to save whomever He will, as a matter of acknowledging His sovereignty, but it’s another thing to make the presumption that the moral lessons of the Gospels can be turned upside-down by that reasoning.
Let’s face it, we’re so afraid to appear judgmental nowadays that we’re losing sight of the obvious.
Jesus doesn’t misdirect or deceive. He can’t He’s God. If Judas went to heaven, that statement of Jesus would have been a double reverse swerve with a triple twist.
Jim B says we can not know for sure Judas is in hell as he may have repented. If he would have Jesus would have known and foreseen this and would not have issued that condemnatory statement about him. Jesus used this as a teaching moment about what can happen if one does not repent of grave sin. This is the only teaching of the Church where it is quite clearly indicated that a particular person is in hell.
I’m afraid your last statement about what the Church teaches is in error. The Church has never declared Judas in hell, nor anyone else. That’s not the Church’s responsibility and she knows it. As Pope Francis recently stated (in my own words) the Church is not in the business of condemning people.
True we waste time even speculating.
But when Jesus said the following John 17:12 It sure sounds like Judas
Judas is in truly, indeed, and is assuredly in Hell.
The Scriptures in the person of the Father and the Son has said so.
The Fathers of the Church has said so.
The Doctors and Saints of the Church has said so.
The Approved Apparitions has said so.
The Christians of the 2000 years has said so.
Why deny this fact?
But people can’t help doing it all the same, and then try to say that their speculations are Church teaching. :shrug:
But when Jesus said the following John 17:12 It sure sounds like Judas
Prophecy is conditional not absolute. When Jonah preached the destruction of Ninevah, for instance, what he predicted didn’t happen because the people repented. Jonah even upbraded God for not carrying out the destruction he had prophecied–Jonah felt it reflected badly on God that it didn’t happen. But God is more interested in mercy than in fulfilling prophecies because they are conditional on our response to his grace. So, we cannot know Judas’ fate from such verses. Only God knows what happened to him at his death. We may dare to pray for his soul, and that of other grave offenders, because there is always hope for them. Of course, this doesn’t mean we should sin boldly and presume upon God’s grace, but it means that we can’t decide another’s fate because only God is the just judge of souls.
Every pious person who every lived might say so, but the Church has not said so and will not say so, so neither can we, claiming we are relaying solid Church teaching. It is merely pious opinion and nothing more.
Also, since Judas died by hanging, and probably not by means of the ‘long drop’ method, it is probable he maintained a conscious period within which he could well have experienced redemption via remorse and contrition and the Holy Spirit.
That is not to say he didn’t experience Purgatory - even at its ‘sootiest’ - that part of the depths of Purgatory closest to Hell…