Military messiah?


#1

I’ve heard ever since I can remember that Jews expected their messiah to be a military leader.

Were there any who expected someone like Jesus?


#2

see
catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp it refers to Judaism in section “The Roots of Muslim Violence” and compare it with Christianity


#3

BS’D

[quote=mark a]I’ve heard ever since I can remember that Jews expected their messiah to be a military leader.

Were there any who expected someone like Jesus?
[/quote]

Shalom Mark,

I wouldn’t use the term “Military Messiah” to describe the awaited Jewish messiah, becuase that would only be focusing on one of his many facets.

Since the Jewish Messiah ( Moshiach ben Dovid ) Must be of the seed of David through Solomon, given that backround it would imply he would be considered quite the spiritual leader, also given the messianic passages of Isaiah 2:3 and Dan 7:14, it shows a man by the grace of HaShem unting the world under G-d.

Considering some believe that the moshiach will come at our darkest hour, he would defeat our enemies on the feild of battle. Hence the mistake of believing Bar Kochba was the Moshiach ben Dovid, given his military succsess against the Romans.

If you have any questions on the Jewish Moshiach, I’ll be happy to help where I can.

Peace,

PS- To all readers, I’m keenly aware of Christaniy’s interpation of the “Messiah”, hence, no need to educate me. I’m also aware many feel the Moshiach we wait for, is in their eyes, the anti-christ,so no reason to travel down that path either. I’m not going to engage people in the Validity of Jewish Theology here on the Apologetic boards, but rather clarify it, so they can properly compare to their own beliefs.


#4

[quote=RebAvomai]BS’D

Shalom Mark,

I wouldn’t use the term “Military Messiah” to describe the awaited Jewish messiah, becuase that would only be focusing on one of his many facets.

Since the Jewish Messiah ( Moshiach ben Dovid ) Must be of the seed of David through Solomon, given that backround it would imply he would be considered quite the spiritual leader, also given the messianic passages of Isaiah 2:3 and Dan 7:14, it shows a man by the grace of HaShem unting the world under G-d.

Considering some believe that the moshiach will come at our darkest hour, he would defeat our enemies on the feild of battle. Hence the mistake of believing Bar Kochba was the Moshiach ben Dovid, given his military succsess against the Romans.

If you have any questions on the Jewish Moshiach, I’ll be happy to help where I can.

Peace,

PS- To all readers, I’m keenly aware of Christaniy’s interpation of the “Messiah”, hence, no need to educate me. I’m also aware many feel the Moshiach we wait for, is in their eyes, the anti-christ,so no reason to travel down that path either. I’m not going to engage people in the Validity of Jewish Theology here on the Apologetic boards, but rather clarify it, so they can properly compare to their own beliefs.
[/quote]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I was actually hoping for Jew’s response.

[font=Comic Sans MS]Your answer about the characteristics of a Jewish messiah did ring a bell with me, but I guess I remembered the “military” part because it contrasts most sharply with my own perception of a “messiah”. But is there any record or tradition of Jews who expected a messiah such as the one Christians claim?

[/font]Concerning your PS-
I have had many good, thoughtful responses from Jews to questions about Judaism. I am in no position to argue theology with anyone and will certainly ask and respond respectfully.


#5

BS’D

Shalom Mark,

Your answer about the characteristics of a Jewish messiah did ring a bell with me, but I guess I remembered the “military” part because it contrasts most sharply with my own perception of a “messiah”.

I would also think that is the vanilla reason given by many when people describe the Jews of jesus’s time and why as a whole, did not accept him as Moshiach ben Dovid.

[font=Comic Sans MS]But is there any record or tradition of Jews who expected a messiah such as the one Christians claim?[/font]

My intial reaction would be to say, “No.” But I am no scholar in that area and I haven’t done to the suffcient research in all the various nooks and crannies of history to find out. Judaism, like Christanity has so many diffrent flavors, break-off sects and what not that such an undertaking would be a time consuming effort :slight_smile:

I can with confidense tho, that the major Jewish sects of that time period did not share Christanity’s interpetation of the Messiah. However, I cannot account for all sects, nor have I read every relgious manuscript from that time period.

I have had many good, thoughtful responses from Jews to questions about Judaism. I am in no position to argue theology with anyone and will certainly ask and respond respectfully.

This is nice to hear :slight_smile: I just wanted to make my intentions clear about not getting into Judaism VS Christanity, but rather what are our correct beliefs and how they are similar/diffrent.


#6

Catholics tend to state that there are 25,000-35,000 Christian demominations. We also consider Catholicism to be the “real deal” in Christianity. Is Judaism fragmenting exponentially also? Is there a particular group of Jews that considers themselves to be “the original”?

Christians also pride themselves on their missionary work. Is missionary work still a large part of Judaism in general? I know it once was.

Sorry to go so far off topic, but wanted to ask these questions while I had your attention.

Thanks


#7

[quote=mark a]I’ve heard ever since I can remember that Jews expected their messiah to be a military leader.

Were there any who expected someone like Jesus?
[/quote]

Sure, John the Baptist.


#8

If oyu want to get technical, it would be Jews decended from the tribe of Judah, hence the name Judaism.

[quote=mark a]Catholics tend to state that there are 25,000-35,000 Christian demominations. We also consider Catholicism to be the “real deal” in Christianity. Is Judaism fragmenting exponentially also? Is there a particular group of Jews that considers themselves to be “the original”?

Christians also pride themselves on their missionary work. Is missionary work still a large part of Judaism in general? I know it once was.

Sorry to go so far off topic, but wanted to ask these questions while I had your attention.

Thanks
[/quote]


#9

BS’D

Shalom Mark,

Catholics tend to state that there are 25,000-35,000 Christian demominations. We also consider Catholicism to be the “real deal” in Christianity. Is Judaism fragmenting exponentially also?

I don’t think there are enough Jews to have that many denomnations, but I think the ratio would be the same. However, it’s more to do with culture then doctrine. Orthodox Jews of all flavors pretty much see each other as legit Jews. Alot of fragmentations come from Poltical Ideal too.

Is there a particular group of Jews that considers themselves to be “the original”?

Fringe groups, there isn’t a signifcant one.

Christians also pride themselves on their missionary work. Is missionary work still a large part of Judaism in general? I know it once was.

By and large, no. However, the Lubavitch (a large sect of hasidic jews) have “emisarries” which go out and evangelize secular/libreal Jews back into Orthodox Judaism. We don’t have a doctrine that one must be Jewish to be saved, so converting someone to Judaism isn’t nesscary for “Salvation” so to speak. We put more emphasis on works rather then faith.

Sorry to go so far off topic, but wanted to ask these questions while I had your attention.

Was my pleasure :slight_smile:


#10

[quote=Apologia100]If oyu want to get technical, it would be Jews decended from the tribe of Judah, hence the name Judaism.
[/quote]

More had to do with the local of Judah and the kingdom then tribal decent, since Levites are considered Jewish even tho they are not of the Judah tribe.


#11

[quote=Apologia100]Sure, John the Baptist.
[/quote]

Well, shoot. I guess that was just to obvious for me to think of. Thanks.


#12

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