Mistake in CA Tract?


#1

Guys, I’d appreciate any insight you can give on this:

In the CA tract on being born again in baptism, it distinctly mentions the importance that in John 3:5 Jesus told Nicodemus that a man must be “born again of the water and spirit”, because since it doesn’t say, “of the water and of the spirit,” just “of the water and spirit” it means that the water baptism also accomplishes being born again in the holy spirit, and that if it said the other, it would imply two separate born again experiences, so to speak (that’s probably a poor paraphrase). BUT, in my King James Bible (please understand I’ll be getting a Catholic bible as soon as I can) it does say “of the water and of the spirit.” In Catholic bibles does it say the former, which would be supported by the CA tract? My KJV Bible says exactly what CA says it doesn’t.


#2

Well, guess what: Just looked up Jn 3:5 in my Gideons Bible (gosh you all must be thinking I have the worst collection of bibles) and it does say “born of the water and spirit.” no “of the spirit.” Looks like my Gideons Bible is closer to God’s original words than the KJV one. I promise I’m going to get a Catholic Bible.


#3

This does bring me to another question, however: since I was told that in the sacrament of confirmation we receive the gift of the holy spirit (and I know that according to the bible they received the holy spirit through the laying on of hands), why is it also said that in baptism we are born again of the water and the spirit? It seems as if the doctrine is that we need to receive the holy spirit in 2 different sacraments, baptism and confirmation. Why isn’t once enough?


#4

The NAB (New American Bible) reads:

"Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”

You don’t have to run out and buy a Catholic Bible, Follow this link:

nccbuscc.com/nab/bible/index.htm


#5

[quote=CollegeKid]This does bring me to another question, however: since I was told that in the sacrament of confirmation we receive the gift of the holy spirit (and I know that according to the bible they received the holy spirit through the laying on of hands), why is it also said that in baptism we are born again of the water and the spirit? It seems as if the doctrine is that we need to receive the holy spirit in 2 different sacraments, baptism and confirmation. Why isn’t once enough?
[/quote]

In Baptism it is the Spirit which regenerates you. In Confirmation the Spirit “Fills” you, as they say, the purpose of which is to empower you to live a life of Grace.


#6

[quote=CollegeKid]This does bring me to another question, however: since I was told that in the sacrament of confirmation we receive the gift of the holy spirit (and I know that according to the bible they received the holy spirit through the laying on of hands), why is it also said that in baptism we are born again of the water and the spirit? It seems as if the doctrine is that we need to receive the holy spirit in 2 different sacraments, baptism and confirmation. Why isn’t once enough?
[/quote]

I think the term is Confirmation is to be sealed with the Holy Spirit (which we received at Baptism). Not sure quite what this means in these terms but someone out there may be able to reply before I find out.


#7

No, when an adult or infant is baptized, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit automatically. When the baptismal water washes the body, the Holy Spirit cleanses the soul. Both work together. They are inseparable. :slight_smile:


#8

[quote=dhgray]The NAB (New American Bible) reads:

"Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”

You don’t have to run out and buy a Catholic Bible, Follow this link:

nccbuscc.com/nab/bible/index.htm
[/quote]

Yes he does. The online version is good. However, unless you want to be glued to the computer screen, It is better to get the actual physical bible. I would also recommend that you check out all the different Catholic translations of the Bible. There are different ones and not everyone likes the NAB. As long as the Bible contains the Deuterocanonical books and pro-Catholic commentaries and footnoting, it’s okay. Here’s a list of Catholic Bibles:

Printed Bibles - (B) Catholic

1582-1609 Douay Rheims
This translation was done from the Vulgate by Gregory Martin and William Allen in Douay and Rheims, France.

1749-1763 Challoner Revision
Bishop Challoner revised the Douay-Rheims and this remained in almost universal use among English-speaking Catholics for nearly 200 years.

1941 Confraternity Revision
It revised only the New Testament.

1944-1950 Knox Bible
Ronald Knox was commissioned by the English Bishops to make a new translation from the Vulgate.

1952-1970 New American
This translation, from the original languages, was commissioned by the American Bishops, and in 1964 was adopted for use in the Liturgy.

1966 Jerusalem Bible
The Jerusalem Dominicans edited this French translation. It was then translated into English.

1965 Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition
New Testament was prepared by a committee of the Catholic Biblical Association of Great Britain. It included wording which reflects Catholic Tradition.

1966 Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition
Old Testament was an updated translation of the KJV which included the Deuterocanonical books.

See Figure, Sources for English Translations scborromeo.org/gifs/picture.gif scborromeo.org/gifs/acrobat.gif.

Source: scborromeo.org/index2.htm

On that site click on “To tell you the Truth”

Then Click: “html web pages”

Then click: “The Bible: Important Translations of the Bible”

That’s a good book on how the Church was involved with preserving the Bible.


#9

Douay-Rheims Bible: drbo.org/


#10

[quote=CollegeKid]Guys, I’d appreciate any insight you can give on this:

In the CA tract on being born again in baptism, it distinctly mentions the importance that in John 3:5 Jesus told Nicodemus that a man must be “born again of the water and spirit”, because since it doesn’t say, “of the water and of the spirit,” just “of the water and spirit” it means that the water baptism also accomplishes being born again in the holy spirit, and that if it said the other, it would imply two separate born again experiences, so to speak (that’s probably a poor paraphrase). BUT, in my King James Bible (please understand I’ll be getting a Catholic bible as soon as I can) it does say “of the water and of the spirit.” In Catholic bibles does it say the former, which would be supported by the CA tract? My KJV Bible says exactly what CA says it doesn’t.
[/quote]

FWIW, the Greek reads “of water and spirit.”


#11

[quote=CollegeKid]This does bring me to another question, however: since I was told that in the sacrament of confirmation we receive the gift of the holy spirit (and I know that according to the bible they received the holy spirit through the laying on of hands), why is it also said that in baptism we are born again of the water and the spirit? It seems as if the doctrine is that we need to receive the holy spirit in 2 different sacraments, baptism and confirmation. Why isn’t once enough?
[/quote]

CollegeKid,

I’m afraid I can’t answer your question (“Why isn’t once enough?”) definitively, but I can point you to Acts 8:14-17 where we see that Philip had baptized a group of Samaritans but they didn’t “receive the Holy Spirit” until the Apostles went down and laid hands on them. So this is a pretty ancient distinction.

  • Liberian

#12

Perhaps my line of thinking (“why isn’t once enough?”) is too narrow-minded in assuming that God only presents us with the grace of the Holy Spirit once in our lives, afterall, why wouldn’t He do this for us more than once if He willed it?


#13

[quote=CollegeKid]Perhaps my line of thinking (“why isn’t once enough?”) is too narrow-minded in assuming that God only presents us with the grace of the Holy Spirit once in our lives, afterall, why wouldn’t He do this for us more than once if He willed it?
[/quote]

Yes, I agree with that. We read in Acts 2:4 at Pentecost “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit”, then again in Acts 4:31 while they (the apostles and others) were at prayer “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit”.
Apparently once when Billy Graham was asked why he kept needing to be filled with the Holy Spirit he said “Because I leak”.Not only do we “leak” but our capacity to receive the Holy Spirit increases, like a larger container and we need filling afresh, or at least topping up.


#14

In Baptism we are freed of Original Sin and become members of the Mystical Body of Christ, His Church. We receive the seven Isaiah gifts(see Isaiah 11:2-3) when the Spirit of the Lord comes upon us. These supernatural gifts(virtues) are to be used for our own personal sanctification. In Confirmation these gifts are strengthened and we receive additional gifts as well (See Corinthians for example. ) which we are to utilize to build up Christ’s Church. In a way Baptism makes us Christians marked out by Christ and Confirmation marks us out as those chosen to actively spread Christ’s Kingdom. Some people are never Baptized or Confirmed and yet lead apparently good lives. This is explained by the idea that the supernatural virtues have corresponding natural virtues that all receive because they are humans held in existence by the presence of the Holy Spirit. There is so to speak a good, better, best for each gift or virtue.


#15

Ok, guys, there’s a much easier way to settle this… we look at the Greek. απεκριθη ιησους αμην αμην λεγω σοι εαν μη τις γεννηθη εξ υδατος και πνευματος ου δυναται εισελθειν εις την βασιλειαν του θεουEx governs the genitive case, in which we find hudatos and pneumatos. Neither one has a definitive article, but then that doesn’t mean one we can’t translate as “the.” However, gennethe is an aorist verb- that is, it describes one happening. The Greek couldn’t read, “born of water and spirit,” simply because it would be nonsense. You must have the genitive pneumatos- it doesn’t mean there are two born again experiences.


#16

This is a common misunderstanding of the Sacrament of Confirmation.

The Sacrament of Baptism forgives all sin, removes all temporal punishment due sin, and bestows the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When we receive the Sacrament of Baptism, we also receive the seven sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit (wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, fortitude, piety and fear of the Lord).

The Sacrament of Confirmation increases and strengthens the divine gifts that we receive through the Sacrament of Baptism.

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

THE GRACE OF BAPTISM

1262** The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.

**THE EFFECTS OF CONFIRMATION

1303** …Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:

  • it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, “Abba! Father!”;
  • it unites us more firmly to Christ;
  • it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
  • it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;
  • it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross …

closed #17

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