Modern scholars begin to look at Koran


#1

Here is a link to a news article from awhile back that shows modern scholars may be starting to look at the koran but still have to do so in secret hiding their names. They are questioning many things Muslims take for granted like the 77 virgins vice white grapes as the reward in heaven…
corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html


#2

[quote=eleusis]Here is a link to a news article from awhile back that shows modern scholars may be starting to look at the koran but still have to do so in secret hiding their names. They are questioning many things Muslims take for granted like the 77 virgins vice white grapes as the reward in heaven…
corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html
[/quote]

Really, secret hiding places? But, Islam is peaceful and tolerant. But, being realistic I have to admire the courage of these scholars no matter where they are hiding.


#3

Modern scholars begin to look at Koran

It’s about time!


#4

“After all, scholars agree that there is no evidence of the Koran until 691 — 59 years after Muhammad’s death — when the Dome of the Rock mosque in Jerusalem was built, carrying several Koranic inscriptions.”

That is very interesting indeed…


#5

this is like mucho detailed study of the koran by middle eastern schoalrs i assume.

Cuz my secular university (which is almost as West as you can get, Seattle) has classes that analyze the bible, tanakh (torah prophets and writing, the jewish bible), and koran as literature, and others that look at it critically from a historical POV and everything.


#6

skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm


#7

[quote=eleusis]Here is a link to a news article from awhile back that shows modern scholars may be starting to look at the koran but still have to do so in secret hiding their names. They are questioning many things Muslims take for granted like the 77 virgins vice white grapes as the reward in heaven…
corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html
[/quote]

Dear eleusis,

You was able to find the above non-sense article from the deep belly of Internet but before posting it failed to see it’s refutation?? Amazing !!!

Probably you must have found it or it’s reference from a deceptive Christian missionary site that is exclusively meant to decieve ignorant people or those who love to remian in their ignorance.

And you also probably think that everything that is found on any Christian site against Islam, must be true. Well, if I apply/reciprocate your logic to you, then Pope is actually an anti-Christ as per one Christian denomination and it also have “proof” and it must be true because anything that is said against your faith on any anti-Catholic site must be true.

See, where your logic is leading?

When people like are going to grow and think from your own God-given mind and stop yourself from becoming an easy target to such rubbish theories that are floating on the internet or originate from “mysterious” sources.

Just to keep the record straight:

**Hûr(un) `Een: Clear Raisins or just Sour Grapes? **

Author: Shibli Zaman

Publishing date: 22.12.2002 23:11

On March 2, 2002 the New York Times published an article entitled “Radical new views of Islam and the Origins of the Koran” by Alexander Stille which ventured to introduce the derided theories of an obscure and unknown German academic by the name of Christoph Luxenberg. This man is literally unknown and whether or not this is his real name is also unknown. What is known is that he has released the first volume of a proposed two volume set entitled “Die Syrisch-Aramaeische Lesart des Koran. Ein Beitrag zur Entschluesselung der Koransprache” (“The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Qur’ân. A Contribution to Decyphering the Qur’ânic Language”). This book attempts to propose the theory that the Qur’ân was originally based upon a Syro-Aramaic compilation of Christian hymns. Thus, he attempts to trace the words of the Qur’ân back to their ancestral Syro-Aramaic lexemes to “rediscover” what the Qur’ân truly says.

Moderator Note: Trimmed for copyright


#8

TRANSCRIPT OF DEBATE

Now we address the issue of the supposed Syro-Aramaic “reinterpretation” of the Qur’ân…

DR. HEGER: Shibli said: “Could you please provide some reference to that Hymn from Efraim as-Suryânî?” Look for the Hymn “About the Paradise” or as it is often quoted “De Paradiso’!”

SHIBLI ZAMAN: Perhaps Dr. Heger did not quite understand what I asked. I didn’t ask him to reiterate the same source over again like some sort of mantra. I asked him to reference where Efraim the Assyrian uses the term “Hûr” or “`Een” in reference to raisins or grapes. AN EXAMPLE. We all know why Heger didn’t answer the question…

DR. HEGER: Shibli said: “Also, could you please tell me how you get ‘white raisin’ from ‘Hûr al-Een’?.. I wonder why he makes this striking mistake. The usual Koran has no ‘Hûr al-Een’, only a “Hûr în" or with another manner of transliteration "Huwriyn”.

SHIBLI ZAMAN: Again, Dr. Heger does not answer the question. He only presents another one. To answer his question, Hûr al-Een is a reference to the Hûr(un)Een of the Qur’ân in the Arabic language since time in memorium.

Perhaps he can look in Lisân al-`Arab of Ibn al-ManTHoor, volume 4, and read the cited stanza:

“Hûr al-`Een li-annahunna bi-thabâ’ wa-l baqar”

It is “Hûr al-Een” (as found extra-Qur’ânically) or “Hûr(un)Een” (as found in the Qur’ân), but it is not “Hûr `in” as Dr. Heger writes erroneously without the necessary nunation. So much time is wasted on this man’s straw man diversions from his horrible inability to address the arguments.

DR. HEGER: Actually, as Christoph Luxenburg in his “Die syrisch-aramaeische Lesart des Koran. Ein Beitrag zur Entschluesselung der Koransprache” (“The Syriac-Aramaic Reading of the Koran. A Contribution to Decyphering the Koranic Language”), Berlin 2000, has made it plain…

**SHIBLI ZAMAN: ** Komisar Luxenburg should learn Aramaic before writing about it. His theories range from ludicrous to hilarious. Or does he really know Aramaic and is simply LYING? It seems to be a trend amongst German missionaries.

DR. HEGER: The “Huwr iyn" have nothing to do with girls, but are "white, crystal clear (grapes) - an aramaism, which in the case of "Huwr" (white) was understood correctly by the Arabic commentators, but in the case of "iyn” totally misunderstood (as they misread the preceding word “zawwajnaahum”, “we join them” instead of “rawwaHnaahum", “we let them rest”.

SHIBLI ZAMAN: Now let us look at the words “Hûr” and “`Een” in Syro-Aramaic. Please refer to my numerous debates with Dr. Heger regarding these languages and watch how he constantly falls on his face yet gets up and begs for more each time.

**Hûr **:

Cont…


#9

**Hûr **

ARABIC: Hûr - “…And ‘Hawar’ is also the stark whiteness of the eye in contrast to the stark blackness (of the iris)” [Mukhtâr as-Sihâh, Abu Bakr ar-Râzî, Letter “Hâ’”]

Example of Qur’ânic Usage: "wa-Hûrun Een", meaning, "And the extreme whitness of the eye" [al-Wâqiah 22].

HEBREW: Chavar - “Be or grow white, pale (Arabic 'Hawir’ be white, ‘Hawar’ whitness, Aramaic 'Chûar’…Isaiah 29:22 ‘…va-lo `attâh pânâyv yeCHEVARU’…” [Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon, Strong’s # 2357, p. 301]

**Example of Old Testament Usage: **

“lâkhênkoh âmar Yahweh el-bêyt yaaqob asher pâdâh eth-abrâhâm loattâh yêbosh yaaqob va-loattâh pânâyv yechevâru”

“Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax PALE.” [Isaiah 29:22]

SYRO-ARAMAIC: Chûar - “…TO BECOME WHITE, to assume white, i.e. white clothing as a party badge; ‘yachtûmî chûarû…’ his garments became white…to make white or clear from the stains of sin…” [A Compendious Syriac Dictionary Founded Upon the Thesaurus Syriacus of R. Payne Smith, Edited J. Payne Smith, page. 133]

**Example of New Testament Usage: **

“Aytaûhî hâweâ dayn chezûeh âyk barqâ walbûsheh CHUWOR hâweâ âyk talgâ”

“His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment WHITE AS SNOW” [Matthew 28:3]

Conclusion: “Hûr” means “white” in Arabic, “white” in Hebrew, and “white” in Syro-Aramaic.

`Een

ARABIC: Een - "The sensor of sight (feminine). Plural 'Ayun(un)’, ‘Uyûn(un)’, and ‘Ayân(un)'. Diminutive 'Uyaynah’, and 'Ayn' also refers to a spring of water.." [Mukhtâr as-Sihâh, Abû Bakr ar-Râzî, Entry "Ayn"]

Example of Qur’ânic Usage: "wa-Hûrun Een", meaning, "And the extreme whitness of the eye" [al-Wâqiah 22].

HEBREW: `Ayin - “Noun Feminine. Eye. 1. Literally as a physical organ…2. a. eyes as shewing mental qualities…3. Fig. of mental and spiritual faculties…4. Transferred meanings: a. visible surface of the earth…b. appearance…c. gleam, sparkle (of metal, jewels, etc)…Noun Feminine. Spring (of water)…” [Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon, Strong’s # 5869, p. 744-745]

**Example of Old Testament Usage: **

Ayin tachatayin…”

“Eye for eye, tooth for tooth…” [Exodus 21:24]

SYRO-ARAMAIC: `Een - “…feminine, the eye…a) of men…b) intelligence, the mental eye…c) a view, opinion…d) the surface of the earth…e) the socket of the knee…f) the opening or span of a bridge…g) the buds of a vine…h) the color, sparkle of wine, of precious stones i)…a spring, fount, fountain, source…”

**Example of New Testament Usage: **

“…D’eenâ chalafeenâ”

“…And eye for an eye” [Matthew 5:38]

Conclusion: “Een/Ayn” means “eyes, physical sight, insight, luster” or “spring” in Arabic, Hebrew and Syro-Aramaic. “Grape” or “raisin” is not found in ANY Lexicon or even a single verse of the Bible. It is the invention of Luxenberg parroted all over the internet by his pathetic fan Dr. Heger who in turn taught it to a cowardly Iranian by the pen-name “Ibn Warraq”.
**
Over all conclusion:** The evidence has been presented clearly and the lies refuted. Now the onus of proof remains on the shoulders of the aforementioned 3 Stooges.



#10

[quote=freedomm]You was able to find the above non-sense article from the deep belly of Internet but before posting it failed to see it’s refutation?? Amazing !!!

When people like are going to grow and think from your own God-given mind and stop yourself from becoming an easy target to such rubbish theories that are floating on the internet or originate from “mysterious” sources.
[/quote]

:whistle: :whistle:


#11

[quote=freedomm]See, where your logic is leading?
[/quote]

The facts??? :rolleyes:


#12

Eleusis tells a lie. Allah is not toyed with!


#13

Imagine the look on a suicide bombers face when instead of a bevy of virgins he gets a hand full of grapes!

Seriously though, it is a good article. Let’s hope that there is no more physical violence against scholars. A re-writing of the Quran is long overdue.


#14

A re-write of the Quran is long overdue? Why not re-write the bible as well!


#15

No need. We have plenty of ancient manuscripts. Our translations work just fine. But it looks like the quran could use some work.


#16

Seems like a case of historical revionism doesn’t it?


#17

Actually that’s what the article says about Islam and the quran. If it is true then don’t you want to know? It posits that Islam developed over time, was influenced by contemporary religion, that Muhammed “borrowed” and actually did not produce parts of the quran, and the fact that you don’t have original manuscripts. Who knows how much was added or left out? They make a good case that the quran changed and adapted over time.

PS: We could put back in the “satanic” verses maybe?


#18

Well there is the gospel of Thomas and such. We might never know where or how all the sources of the bible have been developed.


#19

Our scholars routinely utilize those texts. They are online. We are not intimidated. We have no problem seeking the truth. If we can improve the translation we do it. You seem to be afraid of real scholarship.


#20

I am not they can do it if they want ill be all for it. But to sy that we don’t need to revise or debate over one religous literature over the next is a fallacy.


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