Modesty as an act of charity


#42

That’s not my point. I was saying that dressing modestly shouldn’t be considered some valiant act. It should be normal.


#43

The problem is that what is self-explanatory to one person is not to another. I’ve seen posts here on CAF that suggest a sleeveless dress is immodest, or yoga pants at a gym. Or in this case, a skirt that shows knee. Many, many people would say none of those things are immodest – others would.

It really can only be judged by the person’s heart – and that I’ll leave to God.


#44

Again, it’s not the “knees” or the “legs”. clothes that are shorter just tend to ride up easier…I say if you can’t bend down in them without flashing someone then don’t wear it.

Going by our society’s standards is a terrible idea. Our society knows no guidelines. Wearing a dress or skirt below the knee doesn’t make someone look like a sister wife…they can be fashionable.


#45

“Modesty forbids what the law does not.” Lucius Annaeus Seneca


#46

I also think we have to be careful about falling back on the “well, modesty varies from culture to culture so we can’t set any standards” mindset This is absolutely true (as far as the variety of cultures is concerned) but if a culture falls largely into degeneracy and promotes the expression of sexuality in way that denies the dignity of each person, much like we have in the U.S. today, then we have to be able to still discern that a culture’s level of modesty may be promoting sin and we have to have a higher standard.

For instance, a tribe in Africa in which the women go topless because that’s the cultural norm and not because they are trying to be sexually explicit, is not the same as a woman choosing to walk down the street in the U.S. in a bikini top and short-shorts. She may not be arrested for indecency and people may not look on in shocked horror because we are so desensitized to it, but does that outfit convey modesty?


#47

That depends on what you define as clothing that causes temptation. I don’t believe women need to wear clothes that are deliberately non-attractive. There are clothes that women can wear that are not in any way or form slutty, and yet can make men lust, and viceversa.

Case in point:


#48

Depends on what you mean by “modesty.”


#49

I don’t believe that they have to either as I stated a few times in above posts. We don’t have to go around in sack cloth so men don’t lust as if the full responsibility lies with women.

Pope Pius has stated

"Adornment is legitimate and “responds to the innate need, more greatly felt by woman, to enhance the beauty and dignity of the person with the same means that are suitable to satisfy the other two purposes.”

This is true. If she’s dressed modestly, then she’s done her part.

Considering that people have different standards, your case in point has a bit of the slut factor going on. Yes. The clothing covers all the right parts but, IMO, and it’s just my opinion, the skirt is too tight and a few inches too short. Make it a cute black swing skirt and add about 4 inches and personally, I would think it’s fine. Modesty is more than just about covering all the right parts but also the cut and style of the items as well.


#50

It was Satan who used Eve to trap Adam.

Provacativeness is like a leg hold, with a hair trigger, placed in a dried creek bed, just below the mud’s surface, in the fall time, with leaves on top, and a handful of corn scattered on top the leaves.


#51

Genesis doesn’t make any mention of Eve being provocative.


#52

Yeah. Nobody in my area would be bothered by that. I’m a teacher, and some of my co-workers consider that professional wear.


#53

It is absolutley NOT an invitation to be harassed.


#54

There are many things I would like to say but I’ll just keep it short.

If the measuring stick is for males, then the same thing can be applied for nice modest clothing (since looking nice is usually determined by men). So is makeup and hair ultimately, if we act as if women do all those for men (which a lot of women don’t, but men think they do). You see, this is the problem when you bring in how the victim looks like in rape / harassment cases. Everything will look as if she’s ‘competing for attention’ when she just wants to get from point a to point b. What she wears is irrelevant.

Your last paragraph seems to really, really trivialize this issue. I hope you realize it. Harassment is not just ‘attention from the wrong guy’.

Conversations about modesty and harassment always end badly because it implies as if men are just going to harass if they are attracted to someone, and the fault is on the woman because she happened to attract the wrong guy. It makes men look like pigs, and it also fail to realize how you can literally be covered up and still be raped.


#55

No, obviously it’s not all about male attraction, but do you think high heels, tight skirt, and cleavage are really about impressing other hetero women?

How so? And don’t misconstrue what I said. I’m not belittling harassment just pointing out that similar attention from someone we are interested in, well it’s better described as courting than harassment.

Now you are projecting and you completely ignored what I repeated, that nothing justifies assault.

Are you denying that selection of clothing sends nonverbal signals?

And yes, a small subset of men are pigs and it doesn’t matter what a woman is wearing. My comments weren’t about this group.


#56

I think that’s not as uncommon as you might think. Especially among younger women.

On the other hand, you also get guys who seem to think that anything a woman does to make herself look nicer is because she wants male attention.

It really isn’t. Harassment is a categorically different set of behaviors from courting; it’s not the same behaviors from a different man. (This is of course separate from the idea that some behaviors are ok if you already know that your attentions are welcome.)


#57

#58

#59

An unsupported opinion. How does wearing a sexy outfit impress other women? How is it competitive unless the yardstick is to be more appealing to the opposite sex than her competitors.

[quote=“DarkLight, post:56, topic:471670”]
On the other hand, you also get guys who seem to think that anything a woman does to make herself look nicer is because she wants male attention.
Yep, we’ve already agreed some guys are pigs who can’t comprehend verbal let alone non-verbal cues.

Must disagree at the basic level.
If a guy you like introduces himself and asks for your number, you chat and then decide if you’ll give him your real number.

If another guy you don’t like does the same intro, you’ll tell him one way or another that he’s not wanted, that he’s harassing you. Most guys catch a clue before it goes into what you are probably defining as harassment.


#60

#61

I’d separate out “he’s not wanted” and “he’s harassing you.” Making an approach and getting rejected isn’t harassment, if the approach itself is within acceptable bounds. (For an obvious example - the guy yelling out the car window what he’s like to do with my body is already harassment, because that’s just not an acceptable way to speak to a strange woman.)


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