Mohamed's name in the Old Testament claim?


#1

I read and watching on the internet about Mohamed’s name being in the Old Testament. The referenced word allegedly located in Deuteronomy and Song of Solomon is: מוחמד

I’ve been trying to learn more about Islam since a friend of mine has supposedly read the bible and finds Christianity to be wrong. I thought this would be a way to get different, hopefully good references for my studies. I’m looking for valid (academically honest) Jewish, Christian, secular or other sites that deal with this effectively. Islamic references are not valid in and of themselves without evidence (manuscripts) that can be corroborated by secular, or other sources.

If you know the answer, that would be great.

Thanks.


#2

[quote="PbloPicasso, post:1, topic:215784"]
I read and watching on the internet about Mohamed's name being in the Old Testament. The referenced word allegedly located in Deuteronomy and Song of Solomon is: מוחמד

I've been trying to learn more about Islam since a friend of mine has supposedly read the bible and finds Christianity to be wrong. I thought this would be a way to get different, hopefully good references for my studies. I'm looking for valid (academically honest) Jewish, Christian, secular or other sites that deal with this effectively. Islamic references are not valid in and of themselves without evidence (manuscripts) that can be corroborated by secular, or other sources.

If you know the answer, that would be great.

Thanks.

[/quote]

Verse references in Deu. and SS, please?

I'd like to check this in a Hebrew Bible. I'll be able to do this tomorrow.

God bless and ICXC NIKA.


#3

I know a lot of ladies named Mary. And a few Hispanics named Jesus.


#4

uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100731043801AAxaDlQ

I just found this site. I'm hoping to find someone that is familiar with this claim and to elaborate on the locations in the bible. I remember Song of Solomon 5:14 or something like that. From the other sites I've managed to pull up I've discovered that the real word is מַחֲמַדִּים . I'm not familiar with Hebrew at all and so managing to type this in here is challenging even with pasting (not important).

The link I provided is not something I would source for as academic though. And the name Jesus and Mary have nothing to do with what I'm looking for in here. I'm not sure why you wasted the space with that.

Thanks again.

Wait, I think I got it backwards. That's why I'm asking this. This may seem dumb to many of you but for me it shocked me and I wanted to know if what they claim has any value to it. I believe it means "altogether lovely"
copy and paste is my method before you criticize my formating.


#5

Now that I'm getting better hits online through Google, I feel a bit embarrassed because I never heard this argument between Christians, Jews and Muslims. It really is beginning to look like propaganda is at play here that is made up or twisted truth, meaning not true at all.

If you have anything to elaborate on it I'd still like to hear more. The site I originally found said that there was an ancient manuscript. I want to know what the claim is in a language I understand better, without the accent.


#6

This is a not too old failed clam as always made by muslims in order find anything in the Bible that has to do with with mohammad, other the part that talks about “false prophets”.

this word that you have it is corrupted.

The true word is " מַחֲמַדִּים " = " Mhmdim " = “Mchmdim” = " Machmad "
The word doesn’t means Mohammad (a human being), nor other name.
" מַחֲמַדִּים " is an adjective, a noun !
It means desire, desirable thing, pleasant thing.

This word, according to “The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon” was used in the Bible in a Total: 13 times.
It was used 13 times, and each time in a different meaning as following:

  • Was used as “pleasant thing” 4 times,
  • Was used as “pleasant” 3 times,
  • Was used as “desire” 3 times,
  • Was used as “goodly” 1 time,
  • Was used as “lovely” 1 time,
  • Was used as “beloved” 1 time.

More Info: biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/machmad.html

For Instance, in **Song of Solomon 5:16 **

“16 His throat most sweet, and he is all lovely: such is my beloved, and he is my friend, O ye daughters of Jerusalem.”

Now the Hebrew version:
" 16 - חכו ממתקים וכלו מחמדים זה דודי וזה רעי בנות ירושלם "

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Song%205:16&version=WLC

*** In 1 Kings 20:6**

"6 Yet I will send my servants unto thee to morrow about this time, and they shall search thine house, and the houses of thy servants; and it shall be , that whatsoever is pleasant in thine eyes, they shall put it in their hand, and take it away . "

Now the Hebrew version:
6 כִּ֣י ׀ אִם־כָּעֵ֣ת מָחָ֗ר אֶשְׁלַ֤ח אֶת־עֲבָדַי֙ אֵלֶ֔יךָ וְחִפְּשׂוּ֙ אֶת־בֵּ֣יתְךָ֔ וְאֵ֖ת בָּתֵּ֣י עֲבָדֶ֑יךָ וְהָיָה֙ כָּל־מַחְמַ֣ד עֵינֶ֔יךָ יָשִׂ֥ימוּ בְיָדָ֖ם וְלָקָֽחוּ׃

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2020:6&version=WLC

*** 2 Chronicles 36:19 **
" 19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof. "

Now the Hebrew version:
2 Chronicles 36:19
וַֽיִּשְׂרְפוּ֙ אֶת־בֵּ֣ית הָאֱלֹהִ֔ים וַֽיְנַתְּצ֔וּ אֵ֖ת חֹומַ֣ת יְרוּשָׁלִָ֑ם וְכָל־אַרְמְנֹותֶ֙יהָ֙ שָׂרְפ֣וּ בָאֵ֔שׁ וְכָל־כְּלֵ֥י מַחֲמַדֶּ֖יהָ לְהַשְׁחִֽית׃

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20chronicles%2036:19&version=WLC

*** Isaiah 64:11**
" 11 Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste. "

Now the Hebrew version:
Isaiah 64:10
בֵּ֧ית קָדְשֵׁ֣נוּ וְתִפְאַרְתֵּ֗נוּ אֲשֶׁ֤ר הִֽלְל֙וּךָ֙ אֲבֹתֵ֔ינוּ הָיָ֖ה לִשְׂרֵ֣פַת אֵ֑שׁ וְכָל־מַחֲמַדֵּ֖ינוּ הָיָ֥ה לְחָרְבָּֽה׃
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2064:10&version=WLC

  • Lamentations 1:7; 1:10-11
    " 7 Jerusalem remembered in the days of her affliction and of her miseries all her pleasant things that she had in the days of old, when her people fell into the hand of the enemy, and none did help her: the adversaries saw her, and did mock at her sabbaths.
    …]
    10 The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation.
    11 All her people sigh , they seek bread; they have given their pleasant things for meat to relieve the soul: see , O LORD, and consider ; for I am become vile . "

Now the Hebrew version:
Lamentations 1:7; 1:10-11
7
זָֽכְרָ֣ה יְרוּשָׁלִַ֗ם יְמֵ֤י עָנְיָהּ֙ וּמְרוּדֶ֔יהָ כֹּ֚ל מַחֲמֻדֶ֔יהָ אֲשֶׁ֥ר הָי֖וּ מִ֣ימֵי קֶ֑דֶם בִּנְפֹ֧ל עַמָּ֣הּ בְּיַד־צָ֗ר וְאֵ֤ין עֹוזֵר֙ לָ֔הּ רָא֣וּהָ צָרִ֔ים שָׂחֲק֖וּ עַ֥ל מִשְׁבַּתֶּֽהָ׃

10
יָדֹו֙ פָּ֣רַשׂ צָ֔ר עַ֖ל כָּל־מַחֲמַדֶּ֑יהָ כִּֽי־רָאֲתָ֤ה גֹויִם֙ בָּ֣אוּ מִקְדָּשָׁ֔הּ אֲשֶׁ֣ר צִוִּ֔יתָה לֹא־יָבֹ֥אוּ בַקָּהָ֖ל לָֽךְ׃

11
כָּל־עַמָּהּ נֶאֱנָחִים מְבַקְּשִׁים לֶחֶם נָתְנוּ מחמודיהם בְּאֹכֶל לְהָשִׁיב נָפֶשׁ רְאֵה יְהוָה וְֽהַבִּיטָה כִּי הָיִיתִי זֹולֵלָֽה׃ ,

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%D7%90%D7%99%D7%9B%D7%94+1&version=WLC
blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=WLC&x=0&y=0&b=Lam&c=1&v=1


#7

[Continue]

*** Ezekiel 24:16; Ezekiel 24:21; Ezekiel 24:25 **

16 Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke: yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep , neither shall thy tears run down .

בֶּן־אָדָ֕ם הִנְנִ֨י לֹקֵ֧חַ מִמְּךָ֛ אֶת־מַחְמַ֥ד עֵינֶ֖יךָ בְּמַגֵּפָ֑ה וְלֹ֤א תִסְפֹּד֙ וְלֹ֣א תִבְכֶּ֔ה וְלֹ֥וא תָבֹ֖וא דִּמְעָתֶֽךָ׃

21 Speak unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will profane my sanctuary, the excellency of your strength, the desire of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth; and your sons and your daughters whom ye have left shall fall by the sword.

אֱמֹ֣ר ׀ לְבֵ֣ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֗ל כֹּֽה־אָמַר֮ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִה֒ הִנְנִ֨י מְחַלֵּ֤ל אֶת־מִקְדָּשִׁי֙ גְּאֹ֣ון עֻזְּכֶ֔ם מַחְמַ֥ד עֵֽינֵיכֶ֖ם וּמַחְמַ֣ל נַפְשְׁכֶ֑ם וּבְנֵיכֶ֧ם וּבְנֹֽותֵיכֶ֛ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר עֲזַבְתֶּ֖ם בַּחֶ֥רֶב יִפֹּֽלוּ׃

25 Also, thou son of man, shall it not be in the day when I take from them their strength, the joy of their glory, the desire of their eyes, and that whereupon they set their minds, their sons and their daughters,

וְאַתָּ֣ה בֶן־אָדָ֔ם הֲלֹ֗וא בְּיֹ֨ום קַחְתִּ֤י מֵהֶם֙ אֶת־מָ֣עוּזָּ֔ם מְשֹׂ֖ושׂ תִּפְאַרְתָּ֑ם אֶת־מַחְמַ֤ד עֵֽינֵיהֶם֙ וְאֶת־מַשָּׂ֣א נַפְשָׁ֔ם בְּנֵיהֶ֖ם וּבְנֹותֵיהֶֽם׃

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2024&version=WLC

**Hosea 9:6; Hosea 9:16 *

6 For, lo, they are gone because of destruction: Egypt shall gather them up , Memphis shall bury them: the pleasant places for their silver, nettles shall possess them: thorns shall be in their tabernacles.

6 כִּֽי־הִנֵּ֤ה הָֽלְכוּ֙ מִשֹּׁ֔ד מִצְרַ֥יִם תְּקַבְּצֵ֖ם מֹ֣ף תְּקַבְּרֵ֑ם מַחְמַ֣ד לְכַסְפָּ֗ם קִמֹּושׂ֙ יִֽירָשֵׁ֔ם חֹ֖וחַ בְּאָהֳלֵיהֶֽם׃

16 Ephraim is smitten , their root is dried up , they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth , yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

הֻכָּ֣ה אֶפְרַ֔יִם שָׁרְשָׁ֥ם יָבֵ֖שׁ פְּרִ֣י גַּ֚ם כִּ֣י יֵֽלֵד֔וּן וְהֵמַתִּ֖י מַחֲמַדֵּ֥י בִטְנָֽם׃

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea%209&version=WLC

*** Joel 3:5 **

5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:

אֲשֶׁר־כַּסְפִּי וּזְהָבִי לְקַחְתֶּם וּמַֽחֲמַדַּי הַטֹּבִים הֲבֵאתֶם לְהֵיכְלֵיכֶֽם׃

blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=WLC&x=0&y=0&b=Joe&c=3&v=1

So as we see, this word " מַחֲמַדִּים " has nothing to do with the human being called prophet of Islam, Mohammad.
This noun has the meanings of: desire, desirable thing, pleasant thing.
ONLY IF, you consider mohammad as a " desirable thing" or "pleasant thing" or synonym to "desire"...:shrug:


#8

(Song of Solomon 5:16):
His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely. This is my lover, this my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

What Muhammed has to do with that :confused:


#9

[quote="PbloPicasso, post:1, topic:215784"]
I read and watching on the internet about Mohamed's name being in the Old Testament. The referenced word allegedly located in Deuteronomy and Song of Solomon is: מוחמד

I've been trying to learn more about Islam since a friend of mine has supposedly read the bible and finds Christianity to be wrong. I thought this would be a way to get different, hopefully good references for my studies. I'm looking for valid (academically honest) Jewish, Christian, secular or other sites that deal with this effectively. Islamic references are not valid in and of themselves without evidence (manuscripts) that can be corroborated by secular, or other sources.

If you know the answer, that would be great.

Thanks.

[/quote]

About a year ago at my school, this was brought up in a lengthy discussion that engrossed most of the population of the Campus Center. Knowing a bit of Hebrew I went right to the inter webs and we looked at the original Hebrew of those verses. We did not find the word Mohamed. In fact, we did not even find the letters to form the word Mohamed in either of the original Hebrew. The assertion that Mohamed is in the Bible is a flat out lie.

If your friend is truly a seeker, have him read the book "Mere Christianity" and see what he says then.


#10

I cut and pasted מוחמד into a site that translates Hebrew words into English words, and the result was "Mohammed."

stars21.com/translator/hebrew_to_english.html

I suppose there's still the question of the accuracy of that word in particular being present in the Bible, and then, whether it is the Islamic prophet who is being discussed (as opposed to some other man named Mohammed), but that word by itself is, indeed, Mohammed -- according to the website translation.


#11

[quote="Light1111, post:10, topic:215784"]
I cut and pasted מוחמד into a site that translates Hebrew words into English words, and the result was "Mohammed."

stars21.com/translator/hebrew_to_english.html

I suppose there's still the question of the accuracy of that word in particular being present in the Bible, and then, whether it is the Islamic prophet who is being discussed (as opposed to some other man named Mohammed), but that word by itself is, indeed, Mohammed -- according to the website translation.

[/quote]

Yes and go to another source and you'll get a different translation!


#12

[quote="Light1111, post:10, topic:215784"]
I cut and pasted מוחמד into a site that translates Hebrew words into English words, and the result was "Mohammed."

stars21.com/translator/hebrew_to_english.html

I suppose there's still the question of the accuracy of that word in particular being present in the Bible, and then, whether it is the Islamic prophet who is being discussed (as opposed to some other man named Mohammed), but that word by itself is, indeed, Mohammed -- according to the website translation.

[/quote]

You searched for מוחמד which does mean mohamad - BUT the word in the Hebrew Bible is:

מַחֲמַדִּים Mhmdim

טז חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם. 15

His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is altogether lovely.
This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.'

mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm

Nope - it's not mohamad


#13

[quote="jakasaki, post:12, topic:215784"]
You searched for מוחמד which does mean mohamad - BUT the word in the Hebrew Bible is:

מַחֲמַדִּים Mhmdim

טז חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם. 15

His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is altogether lovely.
This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.'

mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm

Nope - it's not mohamad

[/quote]

The Hebrew word used there is Muhammuddim. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be *Muhamud* translated as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MUHAMMED (P.B.U.H)!


#14

[quote="hamba2han, post:13, topic:215784"]
The Hebrew word used there is Muhammuddim. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be *Muhamud* translated as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MUHAMMED (P.B.U.H)!

[/quote]

Hamba - have you ever read the entire song of chapter 5...??????

**Song of Solomon 5

Lover
1 I have come into my garden, my sister, my bride;
I have gathered my myrrh with my spice.
I have eaten my honeycomb and my honey;
I have drunk my wine and my milk.

Friends
Eat, O friends, and drink;
drink your fill, O lovers.
Beloved
2 I slept but my heart was awake.
Listen! My lover is knocking:
"Open to me, my sister, my darling,
my dove, my flawless one.
My head is drenched with dew,
my hair with the dampness of the night."
3 I have taken off my robe—
must I put it on again?
I have washed my feet—
must I soil them again?

4 My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening;
my heart began to pound for him.

5 I arose to open for my lover,
and my hands dripped with myrrh,
my fingers with flowing myrrh,
on the handles of the lock.

6 I opened for my lover,
but my lover had left; he was gone.
My heart sank at his departure.
I looked for him but did not find him.
I called him but he did not answer.

7 The watchmen found me
as they made their rounds in the city.
They beat me, they bruised me;
they took away my cloak,
those watchmen of the walls!

8 O daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you—
if you find my lover,
what will you tell him?
Tell him I am faint with love.

Friends
9 How is your beloved better than others,
most beautiful of women?
How is your beloved better than others,
that you charge us so?

Beloved
10 My lover is radiant and ruddy,
outstanding among ten thousand.
11 His head is purest gold;
his hair is wavy
and black as a raven.

12 His eyes are like doves
by the water streams,
washed in milk,
mounted like jewels.

13 His cheeks are like beds of spice
yielding perfume.
His lips are like lilies
dripping with myrrh.

14 His arms are rods of gold
set with chrysolite.
His body is like polished ivory
decorated with sapphires.

15 His legs are pillars of marble
set on bases of pure gold.
His appearance is like Lebanon,
choice as its cedars.

16 His mouth is sweetness itself;
he is altogether lovely.
This is my lover, this my friend,
O daughters of Jerusalem.**

This has nothing to do with mohamad - not one thing.

Stop quoting Deedat... it does you no good -


#15

[quote="hamba2han, post:13, topic:215784"]
The Hebrew word used there is Muhammuddim. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be *Muhamud* translated as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MUHAMMED (P.B.U.H)!

[/quote]

If the name means "altogether lovely", isn't one possibility simple coincidence?

bing.com/search?q=altogether+lovely&mkt=*&FORM=IE8SRC&src=IE-SearchBox

If you google "altogether lovely" in English, you get all sorts of results, including tanning salons.


#16

[quote="hamba2han, post:13, topic:215784"]
The Hebrew word used there is Muhammuddim. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be *Muhamud* translated as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MUHAMMED (P.B.U.H)!

[/quote]

I'm heard this before from muslims....

So, the claim is that the name mohamad means the "praised one" - is that correct Hamba..??


#17

[quote="jakasaki, post:16, topic:215784"]
I'm heard this before from muslims....

So, the claim is that the name mohamad means the "praised one" - is that correct Hamba..??

[/quote]

I can see him now looking up his heroes website, deedat, in a vain effort to find an answer


#18

[quote="dolphinlove, post:17, topic:215784"]
I can see him now looking up his heroes website, deedat, in a vain effort to find an answer

[/quote]

Well, I'm questioning him because there are other people named mohamad during mohamads life -

So, if the name mohamad means "the praised one" that means the other mohamads that lived during the prophets time are also "the prasied ones".

I've posted this before - on one breath the muslims will state that the Songs of Solomon is a bunch of perverted verses/poetry filled with vile disgusting words and on the other breath it's......

Oh wait..... 5:16 is all about our prophet mohamad - the praised one - the altogether lovely....!!!!


#19

[quote="hamba2han, post:13, topic:215784"]
The Hebrew word used there is Muhammuddim. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be *Muhamud* translated as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MUHAMMED (P.B.U.H)!

[/quote]

I don't know much about Hebrew specifically, but I do know something about Semitic languages in general, and it seems to me that מַחֲמַדִּים Mhmdim could just as easily be pronounced "Mehmedim." Any combination of vowels could go between the consonants, actually. What is the reasoning behind picking this interpretation specifically, other than the fact that it is convenient for an Islamic interpretation? What is the liguistic justification for interpreting Mhmdim as "Muhammuddim"?


#20

[quote="SalomeBintullah, post:19, topic:215784"]
I don't know much about Hebrew specifically, but I do know something about Semitic languages in general, and it seems to me that מַחֲמַדִּים Mhmdim could just as easily be pronounced "Mehmedim." Any combination of vowels could go between the consonants, actually. What is the reasoning behind picking this interpretation specifically, other than the fact that it is convenient for an Islamic interpretation? What is the liguistic justification for interpreting Mhmdim as "Muhammuddim"?

[/quote]

The vowels are determined by the markings underneath the letters. I don't know them, but maybe someone who can is reading the thread?


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