Mohammed and false Apparitions


#1

Mohammed claimed that long-term apparitions of "an angel" visited him throughout 23 years and gave him messages that clearly contradicted Christianity while teaching some truths like the Oneness and greatness of God. This is so similar to some cough, cough.. False..cough Catholic apparitions in the present age that have attracted huge masses to certain sites.

I've often thought Mohammed was most likely delusional or schizophrenic rather than an outright liar, but now I'm leaning towards the opinion that he was the seer of a false apparition, certainly not the Biblical Archangel St. Gabriel. A thread of mine like this was closed due to veering off-topic, but I'm still interested in the discussion. So, thoughts...


#2

I'm curious as to which false apparitions you're referring to. My Priest told me that Bayside is condemned, but that I shouldn't take Fatima too lightly. I'm deeply suspicious of Medjugore and am an armchair devotee to Our Lady of Guadalupe. I'm fascinated by apparitions in general and would like to hear your opinion on them.


#3

[quote="John_Carlton, post:2, topic:277396"]
I'm curious as to which false apparitions you're referring to. My Priest told me that Bayside is condemned, but that I shouldn't take Fatima too lightly. I'm deeply suspicious of Medjugore and am an armchair devotee to Our Lady of Guadalupe. I'm fascinated by apparitions in general and would like to hear your opinion on them.

[/quote]

I think you and me are very much on the same page as regards our attitudes toward these apparitions. As you can tell from my signature, Our Lady of Guadalupe is pretty much dogma to me. :p


#4

I have often wondered the same thing regarding the apparition of Saint Gabriel to Mohamed. As you are aware, demons can take any form which suits their purpose and will mix truth with lies in order to confuse people and appear ‘genuine’. As for apparitions of Our Blessed Lady, I tend to only listen to those approved by the church, such as Lourdes and Fatima.

God bless


#5

[quote="John_Carlton, post:2, topic:277396"]
I'm curious as to which false apparitions you're referring to. My Priest told me that Bayside is condemned, but that I shouldn't take Fatima too lightly. I'm deeply suspicious of Medjugore and am an armchair devotee to Our Lady of Guadalupe. I'm fascinated by apparitions in general and would like to hear your opinion on them.

[/quote]

I take it he's talking of the fraud at Medjugorje. One of the "revelations" there was directly in support of Valtorta's "Poem of the Man-God" (the name itself is heresy), according to Wikipedia, to the effect of, "For the truth of me and my Son, read this trash".


#6

From what I've read, Gabriel appeared to Mohammed and hit him when he wouldn't obey what the "angel" was telling him to do. So he went to his wife who took him to her uncle, a bishop probably with the Gnostics. It was the uncle who encouraged Mohammed to follow the "angel". According to our beliefs, angels do not touch humans. Lucifer was commended by God to bow before man which he would not do feeling he should be above man.
And if we believe that Christ established THE Church, why would God establish another religion 600 years later. He wouldn't.


#7

aicrit is right. Mohammad said that when gabrielle appeared to him, he held him down and choked him. It actually scared him so much, he ran away crying.

to anybody who believes that this angel was sent from God is delusional.

God would NOT send an angel to basically beat someone up. That angel was NOT of God.

He either had a mental disorder or he was tricked by a demon taking the appearance of an angel.


#8

[quote="aicirt, post:6, topic:277396"]
From what I've read, Gabriel appeared to Mohammed and hit him when he wouldn't obey what the "angel" was telling him to do. So he went to his wife who took him to her uncle, a bishop probably with the Gnostics. It was the uncle who encouraged Mohammed to follow the "angel".** According to our beliefs, angels do not touch humans. **Lucifer was commended by God to bow before man which he would not do feeling he should be above man.
And if we believe that Christ established THE Church, why would God establish another religion 600 years later. He wouldn't.

[/quote]

Jacob might disagree with you...he wrestled with one all night....and not only wrestled but it hit him("touched" him for the literalists....must have been a hard "touch") and knocked his hip out of joint.:shrug:

Muhammed's encounter doesn't sound too off base considering Jacob's encounter.


#9

[quote="PumpkinSeed, post:7, topic:277396"]
aicrit is right. Mohammad said that when gabrielle appeared to him, he held him down and choked him. It actually scared him so much, he ran away crying.

to anybody who believes that this angel was sent from God is delusional.

God would NOT send an angel to basically beat someone up. That angel was NOT of God.

He either had a mental disorder or he was tricked by a demon taking the appearance of an angel.

[/quote]

Mo was epileptic. Google some of the manifestations of the condition and the picture becomes clearer. Being "beaten up" seems very much like gran mal seizure just for openers.


#10

By the rules, aren't we supposed to have one topic per thread? This one seems to have two, based on the title - Mohammed, and false apparitions which can cover a vast spectrum including Mohammed and Marian apparitions. Mohammed and Marian apparitions can hardly be discussed in the same thread.

Just sayin...


#11

[quote="pismopal, post:9, topic:277396"]
Mo was epileptic. Google some of the manifestations of the condition and the picture becomes clearer. Being "beaten up" seems very much like gran mal seizure just for openers.

[/quote]

Yes I know. Even his wife (aisha) in the hadiths mentions some of his 'side effects' he got with these apparitions he had with the 'angel'. It is obvious there was something neurologically and mentally wrong with him. God did not send Gabrielle to choke somebody or beat them up. I do not understand how anybody in their RIGHT mind would think that he had a visit from an angel. How could they possibly defend it?

An angel going around beating up people and choking them until they do what they're told? What? Do they really think God runs a mob or something? geez!


#12

[quote="beehumble, post:10, topic:277396"]
By the rules, aren't we supposed to have one topic per thread? This one seems to have two, based on the title - Mohammed, and false apparitions which can cover a vast spectrum including Mohammed and Marian apparitions. Mohammed and Marian apparitions can hardly be discussed in the same thread.

Just sayin...

[/quote]

Ummm...Mohammed's claimed apparition is a false apparition per many people's view- it's also similar to some false catholic apparitions, which points to a common source- Hows that more than one topic? Mohammed's claimed apparitions are being discussed in the context of false apparitions- not too difficult to draw the relevance.


#13

[quote="Publisher, post:8, topic:277396"]
Jacob might disagree with you...he wrestled with one all night....and not only wrestled but it hit him("touched" him for the literalists....must have been a hard "touch") and knocked his hip out of joint.:shrug:

Muhammed's encounter doesn't sound too off base considering Jacob's encounter.

[/quote]

Jacob wrestled with God.


#14

[quote="aicirt, post:13, topic:277396"]
Jacob wrestled with God.

[/quote]

A theophany...."angel of the Lord'"...."angel" in Hosea.....most likely Genisis reflects a complilation of an earlier group of stories.....I don't believe Jacob literally wrestled with a god or a man or an angel....I realize the need to not have it an angel...interesting that the historical portrayal....even used by the CC has a winged angel.....to wrestle with an "angel of the Lord" IS to wrestle with God it seems.....I think we do "violence" to the text when we literalize it....but then...I'm a "liberal"

To me...its "how many angels on the head of a pin" arguement.:)


#15

[quote="aicirt, post:6, topic:277396"]
From what I've read, Gabriel appeared to Mohammed and hit him when he wouldn't obey what the "angel" was telling him to do. So he went to his wife who took him to her uncle, a bishop probably with the Gnostics. It was the uncle who encouraged Mohammed to follow the "angel". According to our beliefs, angels do not touch humans. Lucifer was commended by God to bow before man which he would not do feeling he should be above man.
And if we believe that Christ established THE Church, why would God establish another religion 600 years later. He wouldn't.

[/quote]

Actually, Gabriel scared the Hell out of (or in to) Muhammad and nearly crushed him to death telling him to recite a message, which Muhammad refused (or was unable to do) three times before he did. After this, Muhammad had a great sickness or a seizure of some sort, and lay in a sickbed for likely weeks, until Gabriel came again and kicked him out of bed and tore his blankets off, and told him the message to recite: "Recite, in the name of your Lord (Rabb, "master", not with any Allah/YHWH religious connotation until after the time of Islam)... who created, who created man out of a clot of bood. Recite, in the name of your Lord (Rabb) most honorable, he who taught the pen, taught man what he knew not..."

The rest about Khadija (his wife) taking him to Waraqa (his uncle or some other relation, according to tradition a heretical Christian), who supposedly told him that the "scriptures" said a prophet was due in his lifetime, and O how they would cast Muhammad out when they realized what he was, and O, I Waraqa would give my support if I lived to see that day... he's never mentioned again.

I think Muhammad mostly plagiarized from the memories of stories he was told around camp-fires by Jews and Christians when he was driving caravans, like a game of telephone. The people he was listening to weren't rabbis and monks, Muhammad wasn't very learned (although, contrary to popular perception, he was literate, which was "learned" for the time, but he was not religiously trained), and the people he spoke to liberally admixed, likely without knowledge, much apocrypha in to what they spoke. Muhammad repeated it, garbled some, some was garbled when it got to him, and probably mixed it further with documents he saw at one point or another. Thus the mish-mash of the Koran.

I wouldn't discount demonic influence, for, as, a Christian writer said, "These Saracens have been raised up as a scourge to Christendom, for our sullying of the most holy religion which God gave to us, by endless bickering and schism" (Muhammad's religion arose during the end of the possible reconciliation of the monophysites, that is, during the monoenergist and monothelite controversies, after the Nestorians had gained some power in Persia, and shortly after the completion of the Talmud - no need for a demon when the confluence of all factors were so perfect, to unite warring tribes by a shrewd political mind and turn their war outward instead of inward).


#16

Thank you for your description. Very informative and appreciated.:thumbsup:


#17

[quote="Marybeloved, post:12, topic:277396"]
Ummm...Mohammed's claimed apparition is a false apparition per many people's view- it's also similar to some false catholic apparitions, which points to a common source- Hows that more than one topic? Mohammed's claimed apparitions are being discussed in the context of false apparitions- not too difficult to draw the relevance.

[/quote]

I guess it was your first post that veered off track when it claimed similarity to Marian apparitions. I don't see a 'common source' with the Mohammed apparition - I do not know of any Marian apparitions that say an angel tried to choke the seer or beat them up, so there really is no similarity. And then somebody jumped onto Medjugorje - which sounds like a different thread to me. So the first few posts were two topics but it seems on track now with only focusing on Mohammed.


#18

I don't know why you keep using the word "beat" which seems very harsh. Angel Gabriel embraced Prophet Mohammed strongly, for reasons that God knows better. Muslims believe that this happened because God wanted Prophet Mohammed to know that this is a true revelation and not an illusion, so that Prophet Mohammed knows that he is not daydreaming and that what is happening in front of him is true. We also believe that Angel Gabriel embraced Prophet Mohammed so that he knows that what is coming will be even more difficult, and that he will face so many obstacles and difficulties in his mission to spread Islam.

The teaching of Islam is a proof that Prophet Mohammed was visited by Angel Gabriel and not a demon as some of you claim!

Islam is to submit yourself to the One true God.

Al Ikhlas 112. Say: He is Allah the One and Only; (1) Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; (2) He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; (3) And there is none like unto Him. (4)

No Muslim can deny any of the Prophets of God, or any of the revelations that came before Quran.

The Women 4. Those who deny Allah and His Messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah and His Messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": and (those who) wish to take a course midway.― (150) They are in truth (equally) Unbelievers; and We have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment. (151) To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, We shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (152)

Al Imran 3. Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

Islam is to pray for God alone and to seek forgiveness from Him alone without a mediator.

The Cow 2. When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them); I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me; let them also with a will listen to My call and believe in Me; that they may walk in the right way. (186)

Al Imran 3. And those who having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls earnestly bring Allah to mind; and ask for forgiveness for their sins,―and who can forgive sins except Allah?,―And are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done. (135)

Islam is to pray, fast, pay money for poor, never say lies, never kill or harm any innocent.

Al Furqan 25. Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred, except for just cause, not commit fornication― and any that does this (not only) meets punishment (68) (But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy― (69) Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (70) And whoever repents and does good has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable) conversion― (71)

Hud 11. And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: for those things that are good remove those that are evil: be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord): (114)

Al Hadid 57. For those who give in Charity, men and women, and loan to Allah a Beautiful Loan, it shall be increased manifold (to their credit) and they shall have (besides) a liberal reward. (18)

[quote="PumpkinSeed, post:11, topic:277396"]
I do not understand how anybody in their RIGHT mind would think that he had a visit from an angel. How could they possibly defend it?

[/quote]

I don’t understand how anybody in their RIGHT mind would believe that such great teachings of Islam would be brought by man or demon!


#19

Jesus says we know a false prophet by their fruits.

Having seen more than enough 'bad' fruits from Mohammad, I have came to the conclusion that he is as false as a prophet can get.

We will agree to disagree.


#20

Embracing and squeezing someone are two very different things. If a total stranger tried to both embrace and squeeze me, I would want nothing to do with them in the future.

And if I am not mistaken, Muhammad wanted to kill himself at some point after encountering the “angel”. St. Mary did not react in this way when the true Archangel Gabriel visited her.

The teaching of Islam is a proof that Prophet Mohammed was visited by Angel Gabriel and not a demon as some of you claim!

Islam is to submit yourself to the One true God.

By your logic, the teaching of Christianity in itself is a proof of its divine origin: Christians are told to submit to God too.

James 4:7-10: [7] Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
[8] Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind.
[9] Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection.
[10] Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.

Al Ikhlas 112. Say: He is Allah the One and Only; (1) Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; (2) He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; (3) And there is none like unto Him. (4)

Christians have no disagreements with this passage. We do not believe in a God that marries and has children.

No Muslim can deny any of the Prophets of God, or any of the revelations that came before Quran.

The Women 4. Those who deny Allah and His Messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah and His Messengers, saying: “We believe in some but reject others”: and (those who) wish to take a course midway.― (150) They are in truth (equally) Unbelievers; and We have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment. (151) To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, We shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (152)

Al Imran 3. Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

But Muslims believe, without evidence, that the Jewish and Christian Scriptures used today were corrupted. Why should we be impressed by Muslim claims to accept the same holy books as Jews and Christians when Muslims also state that those books no longer exist anywhere?

Islam is to pray for God alone and to seek forgiveness from Him alone without a mediator.

The Cow 2. When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them); I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me; let them also with a will listen to My call and believe in Me; that they may walk in the right way. (186)

Al Imran 3. And those who having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls earnestly bring Allah to mind; and ask for forgiveness for their sins,―and who can forgive sins except Allah?,―And are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done. (135)

You assert that Islam is superior and cite a couple passages from the Qur’an. But you have not refuted the Christian beliefs about Jesus. That one thing seems preferable over another to a given individual does not mean that their preferences conform to God’s will.

Islam is to pray, fast, pay money for poor, never say lies, never kill or harm any innocent.

Al Furqan 25. Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred, except for just cause, not commit fornication― and any that does this (not only) meets punishment (68) (But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy― (69) Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (70) And whoever repents and does good has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable) conversion― (71)

Hud 11. And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: for those things that are good remove those that are evil: be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord): (114)

Al Hadid 57. For those who give in Charity, men and women, and loan to Allah a Beautiful Loan, it shall be increased manifold (to their credit) and they shall have (besides) a liberal reward. (18)

I don’t understand how anybody in their RIGHT mind would believe that such great teachings of Islam would be brought by man or demon!

Islam instructs its followers to do good things, but it also teaches grave errors regarding who Jesus is. Demons can more easily deceive humans by mixing truth with falsehood. If Muhammad had come with a revelation ordering everyone to engage in murder, theft, and human sacrifice, it would have been hard for many good and righteous people to accept his message.


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