Moral Dilemma - If you lived in China - China's One Child Policy


#1

The past two years, I have been reading much about China's One Child Policy. With forced sterilizations and forced abortions being the norm for handling female fertility, I have discussed with my husband the moral implications of engaging in the marital act. In many provinces, a woman must obtain a birth permit before becoming pregnant, even for her first child. After her first child, she is coerced into accepting an IUD or sterilization procedure. Some women resist. If she becomes pregnant with a second child, she faces steep penalties. She must either pay a fine or get an abortion. Most women cannot afford the fines, and some try to hide until the baby is born. Some women go on the run. If she is captured at any point before the baby is completely born (abortions are performed even if she is already in labor) she will be beaten, drugged, and her baby will be murdered. Then she will be sterilized.

I just read this morning that in some provinces, they are cracking down because they have had a few too many women get away with giving birth without permission. In their newer, stricter policies, any women who has an illegal pregnancy will not be eligible for any government services - meaning no hospital for her or her child, no education for her child, no retirement pension, and no work for government agencies or branches.

In a terrifying situation as this, with the moral implications of the One Child Policy, I think that I, as a Christian (and there are Christians, even Catholics, in China), would either refuse to marry in the first place, or if I did marry, it would be marriage with continence after the birth of the first child. I cannot imagine taking a risk of my body being violated by forced surgeries, and my baby being violently murdered in my womb.

I am curious about what perspective other posters have on this tragic situation. A woman in China has no ability to fight this, because it only ends in murder or going into hiding to avoid murder. People who speak out end up in "accidents" or they "disappear", or they are forced to seek asylum in America or Europe. I do not want to minimize their pain with this thread, but I am just very concerned about this from a moral dilemma standpoint. What do you think?


#2

I think tyranny requires courage, not cowardice.

Easy for me to say, but if all else were the same but we lived in China, we'd have no choice but to live by their rules, but I'd not be coerced into living by their methods. We've found NFP to be 100% reliable, perhaps because my wife learned all about her fertility patterns BEFORE we got married (no premarital relations). I suspect a lot of people who struggle with NFP didn't have that advantage and never really learn what their mucus patterns look like without the added confusion of, ahem, other bodily fluids clouding the picture up.

Bad as China is, christians have experienced worse in the past 2,000 years without giving up hope for the future (theirs and their family). Why should they give up today?


#3

I hope you do realise that the one child policy exsits for the reason of population control, economic, social and environmental concerns. Think of this matter seriously, why would any government or authourity enforce such a rule?

It is to protect the resources of the country and prevent it from becoming nonexistant: If everyone made children as they wanted and the country ran out of resources, How will everyone live? The answer is that they will eventually die. Is the eventualy death of millions and millions justifiable by not having abortions done to a much smaller scale of women? This may not be the case now, but the rules are there for a reason. A woman who goes againt those rules is breaking the law, that is becoming a criminal, and as with any other criminal activity, there are grave consequences.

Stop thinking of this matter so much. Would you take a shotgun, then shoot a man in the head and expect nothing to happen to you? No person in their right mind would do that. Similarly the women of China know their limits, and the ones who go agaisnt these limits create their own disaster.

Loss of life in any form and number is a terrible thing, but you must understand that sometimes the rules which exist are there for a greater good, and when people wilfully break them, unfortunate things happen, because ordinary people do not run this world.

I will not say anything more.


#4

[quote="mcw013, post:3, topic:330192"]
I hope you do realise that the one child policy exsits for the reason of population control, economic, social and environmental concerns. Think of this matter seriously, why would any government or authourity enforce such a rule?

It is to protect the resources of the country and prevent it from becoming nonexistant: If everyone made children as they wanted and the country ran out of resources, How will everyone live? The answer is that they will eventually die. Is the eventualy death of millions and millions justifiable by not having abortions done to a much smaller scale of women? This may not be the case now, but the rules are there for a reason. A woman who goes againt those rules is breaking the law, that is becoming a criminal, and as with any other criminal activity, there are grave consequences.

Stop thinking of this matter so much. Would you take a shotgun, then shoot a man in the head and expect nothing to happen to you? No person in their right mind would do that. Similarly the women of China know their limits, and the ones who go agaisnt these limits create their own disaster.

Loss of life in any form and number is a terrible thing, but you must understand that sometimes the rules which exist are there for a greater good, and when people wilfully break them, unfortunate things happen, because ordinary people do not run this world.

I will not say anything more.

[/quote]

The world is run by ordinary people, ie, ordinary sinners. That is the problem.

Killing a few to protect the rights of many is never an acceptable moral option. Even if a train with hundreds in it is heading for a wreck, it is not permissible to push a large man onto the track to stop the train with his body. Nor is protecting a civil state by the murder of thousands.

ICXC NIKA


#5

China is a big friggin thorn in the side of the world in general, the Chinese has become a parasite in America slowly taking a foothold in our companies, and everyone say huzza China investing in America, growth, prosperity for everyone, lets have a big ole hug and have a parade the Chinese are not that bad.

Yet what do we see China doing time and again, pretty much enslaving their own people, belittling them, and at times torturing them, with spouts of outcries here and there only for our own presidents and politicians to tip toe around the issue of the conditions that are actually taking place. And at the same time telling us it is a difficult situation as we need China as much as they need us and if we allow China more and more into our economy or what ever then perhaps things will change for the better in China.

When to me it seems like hey if I just give the bully my lunch money, perhaps he won't punch me in the face an instead just punch me in the stomach and in turn maybe the bully won't hurt the other kids an take their lunch money since I gave the bully mine.

For me the Government of China ( not the people ) the Government of China can stick it in their ear.


#6

[quote="GEddie, post:4, topic:330192"]
The world is run by ordinary people, ie, ordinary sinners. That is the problem.

Killing a few to protect the rights of many is never an acceptable moral option. Even if a train with hundreds in it is heading for a wreck, it is not permissible to push a large man onto the track to stop the train with his body. Nor is protecting a civil state by the murder of thousands.

ICXC NIKA

[/quote]

I never said that killing anyone is an accecptable option, not even a few, I only used that as an exapmle to explain another situation. My point of the entire post is that women (people) who violate the policy are the ones responsible for the killing, and these "Violations" should not be done


#7

[quote="mcw013, post:3, topic:330192"]
I hope you do realise that the one child policy exsits for the reason of population control, economic, social and environmental concerns. Think of this matter seriously, why would any government or authourity enforce such a rule?

It is to protect the resources of the country and prevent it from becoming nonexistant: If everyone made children as they wanted and the country ran out of resources, How will everyone live? The answer is that they will eventually die. Is the eventualy death of millions and millions justifiable by not having abortions done to a much smaller scale of women? This may not be the case now, but the rules are there for a reason. A woman who goes againt those rules is breaking the law, that is becoming a criminal, and as with any other criminal activity, there are grave consequences.

Stop thinking of this matter so much. Would you take a shotgun, then shoot a man in the head and expect nothing to happen to you? No person in their right mind would do that. Similarly the women of China know their limits, and the ones who go agaisnt these limits create their own disaster.

Loss of life in any form and number is a terrible thing, but you must understand that sometimes the rules which exist are there for a greater good, and when people wilfully break them, unfortunate things happen, because ordinary people do not run this world.

I will not say anything more.

[/quote]

Your sense of right and wrong are backward. In China, there have been over 300 million abortions in the last 3 decades, and millions more forced sterilizations. If the Chinese government focused their resources upon expanding their economy and improving their agriculture, they could meet the needs of everyone and their birth rate would stabilize naturally. Instead they are using their resources to murder their own people and mutilate the bodies of young women.
As Catholics, we are called to obey just laws, but we are also called to be civilly disobedient to unjust laws. It is unjust to create laws that force women to use contraceptives or undergo sterilization. Those are intrinsic evils. It is unjust to create laws to allow and encourage forced abortions. That is an intrinsic evil. There is no such thing as promoting the greater good through the use of intrinsically evil means.

A woman who becomes pregnant by her husband has not broken any moral law, but only an unjust law created by a tyrannical regime. It is the government who are criminals, not the woman.

If you cannot understand that, then you need to study your catechism.


#8

[quote="mcw013, post:6, topic:330192"]
I never said that killing anyone is an accecptable option, not even a few, I only used that as an exapmle to explain another situation. My point of the entire post is that women (people) who violate the policy are the ones responsible for the killing, and these "Violations" should not be done

[/quote]

How in the world are they responsible for the killing when they are beaten, drugged, strapped to the surgical table, and their babies ripped piece by piece from their womb!?! All because they agreed to engage in the marital act with their husband? Please go study your catechism. Your understanding is totally backward.


#9

[quote="manualman, post:2, topic:330192"]
I think tyranny requires courage, not cowardice.

Easy for me to say, but if all else were the same but we lived in China, we'd have no choice but to live by their rules, but I'd not be coerced into living by their methods. We've found NFP to be 100% reliable, perhaps because my wife learned all about her fertility patterns BEFORE we got married (no premarital relations). I suspect a lot of people who struggle with NFP didn't have that advantage and never really learn what their mucus patterns look like without the added confusion of, ahem, other bodily fluids clouding the picture up.

Bad as China is, christians have experienced worse in the past 2,000 years without giving up hope for the future (theirs and their family). Why should they give up today?

[/quote]

I agree that very careful use of NFP could be a moral option, with the caveat that if I ended up with an illegal pregnancy, I would go into hiding.

I never suggested that they give up, either. I don't know where that impression came from :shrug:

Btw, NFP is not 100% reliable for the prevention of pregnancy. Only complete abstinence is.


#10

[quote="mcw013, post:6, topic:330192"]
I never said that killing anyone is an accecptable option, not even a few, I only used that as an exapmle to explain another situation. My point of the entire post is that women (people) who violate the policy are the ones responsible for the killing, and these "Violations" should not be done

[/quote]

This is the same logic that blames the woman wearing the skimpy read dress for the rape she suffered that night. Yucky logic.

You also have some drastically outdated notions of Chinese demographics. China has a fertility rate far below replacement rate. Worse, the children they do have are disproportionately boys since girls are frequently aborted or abandoned (ever notice that 90% of the kids Americans adopt from China are girls?). China's policies in the last 30 years will be a catastrophe for them in another 20 years. At that point they will have too many elderly to support with too few working age people (and many of them will be surly men with no marriage prospects).

China's fall will occur faster than their rise. The cards are already dealt, it just takes time for the hand to play out. They really blew it with "one child."


#11

[quote="mommamaree, post:7, topic:330192"]

As Catholics, we are called to obey just laws, but we are also called to be civilly disobedient to unjust laws. It is unjust to create laws that force women to use contraceptives or undergo sterilization. Those are intrinsic evils. It is unjust to create laws to allow and encourage forced abortions. That is an intrinsic evil. There is no such thing as promoting the greater good through the use of intrinsically evil means.

A woman who becomes pregnant by her husband has not broken any moral law, but only an unjust law created by a tyrannical regime. It is the government who are criminals, not the woman. .

[/quote]

Exactly.


#12

[quote="mcw013, post:3, topic:330192"]
I hope you do realise that the one child policy exsits for the reason of population control, economic, social and environmental concerns. Think of this matter seriously, why would any government or authourity enforce such a rule?

It is to protect the resources of the country and prevent it from becoming nonexistant: If everyone made children as they wanted and the country ran out of resources, How will everyone live? The answer is that they will eventually die. Is the eventualy death of millions and millions justifiable by not having abortions done to a much smaller scale of women? This may not be the case now, but the rules are there for a reason. A woman who goes againt those rules is breaking the law, that is becoming a criminal, and as with any other criminal activity, there are grave consequences.

Stop thinking of this matter so much. Would you take a shotgun, then shoot a man in the head and expect nothing to happen to you? No person in their right mind would do that. Similarly the women of China know their limits, and the ones who go agaisnt these limits create their own disaster.

Loss of life in any form and number is a terrible thing, but you must understand that sometimes the rules which exist are there for a greater good, and when people wilfully break them, unfortunate things happen, because ordinary people do not run this world.

I will not say anything more.

[/quote]

Let me make sure I'm not misunderstanding you. Are you defending China's one-child policy? :confused: Forced abortions/sterilizations don't ring any alarm bells for you but instead get blamed on the victims rather than the perpetrators?


#13

[quote="mcw013, post:3, topic:330192"]
I hope you do realise that the one child policy exsits for the reason of population control, economic, social and environmental concerns. Think of this matter seriously, why would any government or authourity enforce such a rule?

It is to protect the resources of the country and prevent it from becoming nonexistant: If everyone made children as they wanted and the country ran out of resources, How will everyone live? The answer is that they will eventually die. Is the eventualy death of millions and millions justifiable by not having abortions done to a much smaller scale of women? This may not be the case now, but the rules are there for a reason. A woman who goes againt those rules is breaking the law, that is becoming a criminal, and as with any other criminal activity, there are grave consequences.

Stop thinking of this matter so much. Would you take a shotgun, then shoot a man in the head and expect nothing to happen to you? No person in their right mind would do that. Similarly the women of China know their limits, and the ones who go agaisnt these limits create their own disaster.

Loss of life in any form and number is a terrible thing, but you must understand that sometimes the rules which exist are there for a greater good, and when people wilfully break them, unfortunate things happen, because ordinary people do not run this world.

I will not say anything more.

[/quote]

Perfect example of why you cannot do evil even if you have good intentions. The enforcement of the one-child policy in China is evil no matter what the reasoning behind it is or the supposed "greater good" it seeks to gain.


#14

[quote="mcw013, post:3, topic:330192"]
I hope you do realise that the one child policy exsits for the reason of population control, economic, social and environmental concerns. Think of this matter seriously, why would any government or authourity enforce such a rule?

It is to protect the resources of the country and prevent it from becoming nonexistant: If everyone made children as they wanted and the country ran out of resources, How will everyone live? The answer is that they will eventually die. Is the eventualy death of millions and millions justifiable by not having abortions done to a much smaller scale of women? This may not be the case now, but the rules are there for a reason. A woman who goes againt those rules is breaking the law, that is becoming a criminal, and as with any other criminal activity, there are grave consequences.

Stop thinking of this matter so much. Would you take a shotgun, then shoot a man in the head and expect nothing to happen to you? No person in their right mind would do that. Similarly the women of China know their limits, and the ones who go agaisnt these limits create their own disaster.

Loss of life in any form and number is a terrible thing, but you must understand that sometimes the rules which exist are there for a greater good, and when people wilfully break them, unfortunate things happen, because ordinary people do not run this world.

I will not say anything more.

[/quote]

The One Child Policy is immoral. Even the United Nations "Declaration of Human Rights" protects the right of a married couple to reproduce as they see fit.

Killing unborn babies is immoral. Sterilization is immoral. Coercion to commit immoral behavior is especially immoral. None of this can be justified by a "greater good" - Jesus Christ is the "Greater Good". China is wrong.


#15

[quote="mommamaree, post:1, topic:330192"]
The past two years, I have been reading much about China's One Child Policy. With forced sterilizations and forced abortions being the norm for handling female fertility, I have discussed with my husband the moral implications of engaging in the marital act. In many provinces, a woman must obtain a birth permit before becoming pregnant, even for her first child. After her first child, she is coerced into accepting an IUD or sterilization procedure. Some women resist. If she becomes pregnant with a second child, she faces steep penalties. She must either pay a fine or get an abortion. Most women cannot afford the fines, and some try to hide until the baby is born. Some women go on the run. If she is captured at any point before the baby is completely born (abortions are performed even if she is already in labor) she will be beaten, drugged, and her baby will be murdered. Then she will be sterilized.

I just read this morning that in some provinces, they are cracking down because they have had a few too many women get away with giving birth without permission. In their newer, stricter policies, any women who has an illegal pregnancy will not be eligible for any government services - meaning no hospital for her or her child, no education for her child, no retirement pension, and no work for government agencies or branches.

In a terrifying situation as this, with the moral implications of the One Child Policy, I think that I, as a Christian (and there are Christians, even Catholics, in China), would either refuse to marry in the first place, or if I did marry, it would be marriage with continence after the birth of the first child. I cannot imagine taking a risk of my body being violated by forced surgeries, and my baby being violently murdered in my womb.

I am curious about what perspective other posters have on this tragic situation. A woman in China has no ability to fight this, because it only ends in murder or going into hiding to avoid murder. People who speak out end up in "accidents" or they "disappear", or they are forced to seek asylum in America or Europe. I do not want to minimize their pain with this thread, but I am just very concerned about this from a moral dilemma standpoint. What do you think?

[/quote]

Indefinite use of Natural Family Planning or abstinence could be justified by persecution. However, a family that finds itself pregnant must do everything in its power to protect the child, even if it means accepting steep penalties.


#16

Even having the first child brings about its own issues. If the woman is expecting a girl, she would either get an abortion or be forced into one by her husband's family. Female infantcide was already common before the one child policy. Now, it must be quite rampant, with families all hoping to produce a male to continue the family line.

Honestly, I'm with you about not having kids if I were born in China.


#17

I think the devil would love it if, given the circumstances you lay out, people were not to marry.

The devil hates unity, family, sacrifice.

So if I were to give someone advice in China it would be this:

Marry. Follow the rules. Abstain from sex during the fertile periods, offer up that repeated sacrifice to God for all manner of intentions in the country. Be a heroic Mom…Dad…fully cheerful under those trying circumstances. Spread joy…spread the Gospel. Live the sacrifice with great abandonment to the will of God.

And try to be so frugal…and self reliant that you don’t need the stinking commie government to live off of.


#18

[quote="Edward_H, post:17, topic:330192"]
I think the devil would love it if, given the circumstances you lay out, people were not to marry.

The devil hates unity, family, sacrifice.

So if I were to give someone advice in China it would be this:

Marry. Follow the rules. Abstain from sex during the fertile periods, offer up that repeated sacrifice to God for all manner of intentions in the country. Be a heroic Mom..Dad...fully cheerful under those trying circumstances. Spread joy...spread the Gospel. Live the sacrifice with great abandonment to the will of God.

And try to be so frugal...and self reliant that you don't need the stinking commie government to live off of.

[/quote]

Love your perspective. That builds even more on the starting point I had in my thoughts. Thank you.


#19

[quote="mcrts, post:16, topic:330192"]
Even having the first child brings about its own issues. If the woman is expecting a girl, she would either get an abortion or be forced into one by her husband's family. Female infantcide was already common before the one child policy. Now, it must be quite rampant, with families all hoping to produce a male to continue the family line.

Honestly, I'm with you about not having kids if I were born in China.

[/quote]

In theory, a women could have up to two children, if the first is a girl, to get another opportunity for a boy. Female infanticide, natal or postnatal, is still disproportionately high (though any infanticide, "proportionate" or not, is also gravely immoral).


#20

[quote="manualman, post:10, topic:330192"]
This is the same logic that blames the woman wearing the skimpy read dress for the rape she suffered that night. Yucky logic.

You also have some drastically outdated notions of Chinese demographics. China has a fertility rate far below replacement rate. Worse, the children they do have are disproportionately boys since girls are frequently aborted or abandoned (ever notice that 90% of the kids Americans adopt from China are girls?). China's policies in the last 30 years will be a catastrophe for them in another 20 years. At that point they will have too many elderly to support with too few working age people (and many of them will be surly men with no marriage prospects).

China's fall will occur faster than their rise. The cards are already dealt, it just takes time for the hand to play out. They really blew it with "one child."

[/quote]

Exactly.

Another peculiar practice that has begun to develop rapidly in China?

Female kidnappings. There are so few women Chinese in proportion to men that families are kidnapping women to Marry their sons.
Otherwise it would be nearly impossible for their sons to find women on their own.

I think it's hilarious that people are so uptight about continuing the family line that they want only sons.
Well, how the heck is the line going to continue if their is no women to produce this line?


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