Morally obligated to do what?


#1

As we speak the current ‘nation’ of Israel is ravaging the peoples of Palestine. Tens of thousands have been slaughtered for no reason other then the fact that they were in the way. Israel is bulldozing the peoples houses so that they must relocate to start their life over. The huge wall in the West Bank separates an incredible amount of people from their families. Villages are emptied, resettled with Jewish populations and then walled with large cement walls. There are quite a few Catholics that are amongst the persecuted… Israel is essentially raping the people of the surrounding areas, and we, the Americas intentionally and financially support it. What should I do? Is it right to oppress those peoples so that Israel can get its ‘promised’ lands? Please help this confused Catholic…


#2

Monoxide, the Palestinians have never existed as a nation before the birth of Israel. That part of the world saw 3,000 years of Jewish sovereignity, more than by any other nation. After WWII, Britain owned that whole area and sold the land to the Israelis. Nothing secret about it; everyone knew they were coming. The Palestinians wouldn’t leave, and none of their Muslim brothers would take them in. The Israelis evicted them.

Israel has offered multiple times to withdraw from various territories, and has done so, on the condition that the attacks against them cease. The Palestinians agree, and then attack anyway because they have sworn to destroy Israel. So the Israelis defend themselves and sweep the Palestinians aside as one would a pack of rats. One does not negotiate with a rat; to deal with a rat, you kill it.

Our obligation as Catholics? Pray that the Palestinian leadership can stop the terrorist militias; that they will agree to peaceful co-existence; that they will forswear violence; that the Israelis will forego any grudges or demands of reparations; and that the United States will be prepared to defend its treaty ally - Israel - in the event of all-out war.

Other than that, it’s the law of the jungle - eat or be eaten. Were I able to work my will, I’d tell the Israelis to take off the gloves and put an end to this insanity before it put an end to them.

Am I being cynical? No, I’m being what I am - a retired Air Force Master Intelligence Specialist who knows that nothing is as easy - or as hard - as it looks because you can’t always believe what you see.


#3

Rcwhiteh is correct in his history and his logic. He is correct.


#4

[quote=Monoxide]As we speak the current ‘nation’ of Israel is ravaging the peoples of Palestine. Tens of thousands have been slaughtered for no reason other then the fact that they were in the way. Israel is bulldozing the peoples houses so that they must relocate to start their life over. The huge wall in the West Bank separates an incredible amount of people from their families. Villages are emptied, resettled with Jewish populations and then walled with large cement walls. There are quite a few Catholics that are amongst the persecuted… Israel is essentially raping the people of the surrounding areas, and we, the Americas intentionally and financially support it. What should I do? Is it right to oppress those peoples so that Israel can get its ‘promised’ lands? Please help this confused Catholic…
[/quote]

good points about those evil Jews. If only Hitler had finished them off when he had the chance, right? Now it’s up to the Arabs to do it.


#5

You failed to answer my question, well i suppose it wasnt really a question. Catholics are victims too in the atrocities occuring right now. Dont tell me its not, I have friends who have escaped their homes in the West Bank. What does it matter what Israel’s history is, the past is done and gone. Right now they are evacuating villiages of palestinians. You cannot honestly tell me that more Israeli people die then Palestinians over this issue. Look at this from another angle. Is there ever any pro-palistinian news or articles? We are taught to hate them, so we do. I asked what we as good catholics should do to address the fact that we, the USA send more aid money to Israel then all other countries in the world combined. They spend it on weapons. We recently *gave *them 100 F16’s. The only possible result of this is more bloodshed. We enabled them to have nuclear weapons - and they do. Why do they need our assistance further?

Thank you.

Also, what does hitler have to do with this?


#6

[quote=Monoxide]What does it matter what Israel’s history is, the past is done and gone.
[/quote]

The Palestinians argue that the Jews have no prior claim to the land; therefore, they open the door to the effective argument that since the Jews held it and ruled it for 3,000 years, it was theirs.

[quote=Monoxide]Right now they are evacuating villiages of palestinians. You cannot honestly tell me that more Israeli people die then Palestinians over this issue.
[/quote]

Maybe it’s because the Palestinians choose to fight, with small-arms fire and no armor, against tanks, helicopters and heavily armed, battle-hardened soldiers. I see that as being akin to spitting in the face of a Chicago cop; somebody’s gonna get a beating, and it ain’t the cop.

[quote=Monoxide]Look at this from another angle. Is there ever any pro-palistinian news or articles?
[/quote]

All the time on NPR. :smiley:

[quote=Monoxide]We are taught to hate them, so we do.
[/quote]

And here I thought Americans were always being accused of being anti-Semitic.

[quote=Monoxide]I asked what we as good catholics should do to address the fact that we, the USA send more aid money to Israel then all other countries in the world combined.
[/quote]

We also foot the bill for most of the UN’s daily operations; an organization 70% comprised of dictatorships and tyrranies, anti-American (and anti-Israeli) to the core and heavily partial to Palestinian interests. How else could Yasser Arafat get away with bringing a handgun (strictly against the law in NYC) into the UN General Assembly and threatening that august body with war?

Monoxide, what do you want us to do? Stand back and let the Arabs finish what Hitler started - the extermination of the Jews? Do you seriously want the Temple Mount razed? All the Christian sites are next on the target list, y’know…

The world is governed by the aggressive use of force; anyone who thinks violence never solves anything is invited to consider what happened to Carthage.

[quote=Monoxide]Why do they need our assistance further?
[/quote]

So that when the Israeli people finally get fed up with the Death by a Thousand Cuts and decide to put an end to the matter once and for all time, they will have the means to do so; and I, for one, hope that their staunchest treaty ally - Uncle Sam - will be holding their coats for them.


#7

[quote=Monoxide]Is there ever any pro-palistinian news or articles? We are taught to hate them, so we do.
[/quote]

Yeah. Quite a bit. Terrorist reported as fredom fighters, likened to the founding fathers of our country. Arafat celebrated as a hero. If your being taught to hate the palestians you must have a source of information I’m unfamiliar with.

Nearly everything I see and read is pro-palistinian and anti-israel.

I understand your pain. No one wants to see anyone suffer.

But if a group of people swarn to the distruction of the United States wanted to take up residence in Washington DC and thought the best way to do that was by blowing up people in shoping malls and school children at the bus stop, I’d be less than sympathetic with their cause.

The shame of it all, is that it seems to me the group is being used by their islamic breatheren as a pawn in their game to eliminate the Jews.

Chuck


#8

Monoxide,

What you have seen in these posts is the truth, you can choose to ignore it or believe it, the choice is yours, but the truth is still the truth.

Leo


#9

so what you guys are saying is that we as Catholics are morally obligated to fund the genocide of the palestinian people because they are differant than us. Yes, when the palestinians were kicked from their houses in the mid of the last century they did initiate some hostilities against Israel. Yet, it was israel that first declared war 10 years later (6 day war if your not familiar). Im trying to say that although the rock-throwing kamakazie palestinian farmers may have started the war, but the American-funded, battle hardened military from Israel have made no moves to stop it. Road map to peace hah, it has caused more deaths then without.

I in no way dislike jewish people, in fact, i can honestly claim that some of the best people i know are jewish.


#10

[quote=Monoxide]so what you guys are saying is that we as Catholics are morally obligated to fund the genocide of the palestinian people because they are differant than us.
[/quote]

No, Monoxide, no one is saying what you just said, and I, for one, resent that you have chosen to misunderstand what obviously older and wiser heads have said to you.

What I am saying is that the Israelis had a historically legitimate claim to the land; that they own the land by right of paying for it; that they have held the land against direct assault and insurgency; that they are the treaty allies of our nation; and that we as CHRISTIANS (not just Catholics) have an interest in standing with our elder brothers in faith.

[quote=Monoxide]Yes, when the palestinians were kicked from their houses in the mid of the last century they did initiate some hostilities against Israel.
[/quote]

NO KIDDING; and the Israelis did what any property owner would do in such a case - they fought with countervailing force to drive out the squatters.

[quote=Monoxide]Yet, it was israel that first declared war 10 years later (6 day war if your not familiar).
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I’m quite familiar with the events in question. As I recall, the Egyptians precipitated the war by telling the Israelis that they were going to ride to the defense of their displaced Muslim brothers, and then proceeded to dispatch 3,000 state-of-the-art Soviet main battle tanks to sweep the Israelis into the sea.

These same 3,000 tanks are rusting hulks in the desert, mute testimony to the skill and courage of small Israeli units, fighting with RPGs and rifles; using shoot-and-move tactics, they utterly destroyed a far superior force.

Can you say “God was on their side?” I think He was, and I think He still is.

[quote=Monoxide]Im trying to say that although the rock-throwing kamakazie palestinian farmers may have started the war, but the American-funded, battle hardened military from Israel have made no moves to stop it.
[/quote]

The only way that heavily armed, battle-hardened troops can end a conflict is by either surrendering or by defeating the enemy. The purpose of a military body is to kill people and break things. What do you want the Israeli Army to do? Lay down their weapons and let the Al-Aqsa Brigades (now the Yasser Arafat Brigades) slit their throats?

What do you call the territorial concessions Ehud Barak (ostensibly the greatest war hero the Israelis ever had) made to stop the Intifada? Or Rabin? Or Sharon? Were these not peace offerings? What have the Palestinians done to wage peace?

[quote=Monoxide]I in no way dislike jewish people, in fact, i can honestly claim that some of the best people i know are jewish.
[/quote]

An attack on the Jews almost always follows the statement, “Some of my best friends are Jews.”

Menachem Begin, the Israeli Prime Minister who ordered the attack on the nuclear reactors in Iraq, understood the situation quite well: if you take away the enemy’s ability to make war, you don’t have to worry about him attacking you. This ultimately saves lives on both sides.

What the Palestinians ought to do is lay down their arms and swear by all they hold holy that they will live together in peace with brothers so close that even DNA analysis can’t tell the difference between them. And until they do, we have an obligation to help Israel hold the number of innocent civilian casualties to the minimum possible; since they can’t do that effectively with insurgents fighting out of uniform, we’re going to have more Palestinian casulaties than Israeli.


#11

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