More suffering equals a better beatific vision?

Hi everyone. A friend of mine told me that the more we suffer on earth, the better our beatific vision will be. He said that this is found in this Vatican document:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/hlthwork/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

I, being sick and all, can’t read through the whole thing right now so I was wondering, does this document really say that? If so, which paragraph does it say this in? I’d like to see this for myself because I find it hard to believe.

I don’t need to read that document as I already know, suffering increases our rewards in heaven, but ONLY if endured patiently for the love of God and the forgiveness of sins.

It is also a fact that God gives the greatest sufferings to those He loves most, there are even what is known as victim souls, these are souls that are chosen by God to suffer more than most people during life, and who generously accept the suffering in union with the Saviour and after the example of Christ’s own Passion and Death.

Oh ok interesting! Thanks! :thumbsup:

This is quite dangerous doctrine, IMO.

Considering the sheer amount of suffering the Enemy inflicts upon humanity and God’s people, our Lord is not in league with him.

Holy Scripture NEVER teaches that God gives suffering to any of His children, nevermind God loving anyone “most.”

The only thing more dangerous is responding in the negative to something that you have not, (and doubtless, will not…) actually read. Oh…and it’s not a doctrine.

Considering the sheer amount of suffering the Enemy inflicts upon humanity and God’s people, our Lord is not in league with him.

So…in your religion, suffering always comes from the devil? If so then that would explain how the health & wealth folks got their start.

If you’d actually bothered to read this document you might have been both blessed and saved yourself from embarrassing remarks.

Let’s see what it really says in part.

  1. The Cross of Christ throws salvific light, in a most penetrating way, on man’s life and in particular on his suffering. For through faith the Cross reaches man *together with the Resurrection: *the mystery of the Passion is contained in the Paschal Mystery. The witnesses of Christ’s Passion are at the seme time witnesses of his Resurrection. Paul writes: “That I may know him (Christ) and the power of his Resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead”(64). Truly, the Apostle first experienced the “power of the Resurrection” of Christ, on the road to Damascus, and only later, in this paschal light, reached that " sharing in his sufferings" of which he speaks, for example, in the Letter to the Galatians. **The path of Paul **is clearly paschal: *sharing in the Cross *of Christ comes about *through the experience of the Risen One, *therefore through a special sharing in the Resurrection. Thus, even in the Apostle’s expressions on the subject of suffering there so often appears the motif of glory, which finds its beginning in Christ’s Cross.
    The witnesses of the Cross and Resurrection were convinced that “through many tribulations we must enter the Kingdom of God”(65). And Paul, writing to the Thessalonians, says this: “We ourselves boast of you… for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you are enduring. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made *worthy of the Kingdom of God, *for which you are suffering”(66). Thus to share in the sufferings of Christ is, at the same time, to suffer for the Kingdom of God. In the eyes of the just God, before his judgment, those who share in the suffering of Christ become worthy of this Kingdom. Through their sufferings, in a certain sense they repay the infinite price of the Passion and death of Christ, which became the price of our Redemption: at this price the Kingdom of God has been consolidated anew in human history, becoming the definitive prospect of man’s earthly existence. Christ has led us into this Kingdom through his suffering. And also through suffering those surrounded by the mystery of Christ’s Redemption *become mature *enough to enter this Kingdom.

Holy Scripture NEVER teaches that God gives suffering to any of His children, nevermind God loving anyone “most.”

Really? I don’t think St. Peter’s inspired words in his first epistle would agree with you there.

From chapter 3…12] For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil."
13] Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right?
14] But even if you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,
15] but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;
16] and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.
17] For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God’s will, than for doing wrong.
[FONT=Garamond]
Holly, to answer your question, only the Catholic faith gives any real meaning and merit to human suffering. N-Cs have so many varied opinions that it’s near impossible to get a good consensus.

If you read the document you find many references to the book of Job, which is exemplary with regard to suffering. God allowed it, even though He loved him.

Human suffering, as the saying goes…happens.

Look at Haiti & Chile and the news of the day. It’s all around us and in our own lives as well. We all have it.

Bearing it in imitation of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who did not deserve His sufferings but willingly and quietly accepted them and endured them for our sake, can only help to make us better Christians.
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This is quite dangerous doctrine, IMO.

The only thing more dangerous is responding in the negative to something that you have not, (and doubtless, will not…) actually read.

I read the post. It remains great error still.

Oh…and it’s not a doctrine.

Doctrine means teaching.

The poster was passing this off as truth. The truth, however, is far from such claims.

**Considering the sheer amount of suffering the Enemy inflicts upon humanity and God’s people, our Lord is not in league with him. **

So…in your religion, suffering always comes from the devil?

Suffering for God’s children always come as a result of the work of the Enemy or the consequences of sin and living in a broken world.

This is why we see Jesus healing the suffering of so many during His ministry.

What He never told any of those He rescued is that He loved them less now that they were set loose from their suffering.

The poster has our Lord GIVING suffering to those He “loves most”…all the while the testimony of Scripture is our Lord relieves the suffering of those He loves.

This is why He is called our Redeemer, Savior, and Healer.

**Holy Scripture NEVER teaches that God gives suffering to any of His children, nevermind God loving anyone “most.” **

Really? I don’t think St. Peter’s inspired words in his first epistle would agree with you there.

From chapter 3…
[12] For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil."
[13] Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right?
[14] But even if you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,
[15] but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;
[16] and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.
[17] For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God’s will, than for doing wrong.

Sorry, but there is nothing anywhere in there about God giving suffering to those He “loves most.”

I hope you did not think no one would notice.

If you read the document you find many references to the book of Job, which is exemplary with regard to suffering. God allowed it, even though He loved him.

And anyone familiar with Job would know that God did not give ANY suffering to Job. The one giving the suffering to Job was Satan himself.

Why anyone would indict God for the sins of Satan is beyond me. I do know atheists that do this all the time, but no Christian should ever be guilty of this.

What we do find God doing in Job is REDEEMING him from his suffering and giving Job back all he lost…many times over.

You did not read the document that Holly included in her link, or you wouldn’t have made such an unfounded accusation. But you don’t seem to care about truth…just any little cheap shot to make it appear that the Catholic Church is wrong. That’s pretty sad Atemi.

Doctrine means teaching

.:yawn:

The poster was passing this off as truth. The truth, however, is far from such claims.

Uh huh… Admit it… you didn’t take the time to actually read the document that she asked about before responding did you…and you still haven’t, have you?

Suffering for God’s children always come as a result of the work of the Enemy or the consequences of sin and living in a broken world.

This is why we see Jesus healing the suffering of so many during His ministry.

What He never told any of those He rescued is that He loved them less

now that they were set loose from their suffering.

The poster has our Lord GIVING suffering to those He “loves most”…all the while the testimony of Scripture is our Lord relieves the suffering of those He loves.No…actually Holly, (whom I know personally and pretty well) was asking if what she had been told was correct based on the papal document she linked.

You apparently responded in knee jerk and without actually “doing due diligence” (to swipe your phrase :rolleyes:) and now here’s your snack for it. Enjoy…http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/eating_crow-1.jpg

When you stop misrepresenting Catholic teachings and pursuing your a-C agenda, then maybe you’ll gain a little credibility, but I don’t see that happenin’.

Wow Church Militant! That is profound! :bigyikes:

Whatever you say dude. Look, if you’re going to post in my thread and reply with anti-Catholic teaching, could you at least do me the favor of reading the document I linked to first? Otherwise you’re just wasting my time, your time, and our time. Anyway, I’m not trying to be offensive here. I’m just trying to kindly redirect your intentions so that way you don’t waste the time that we all find to be quite precious in this short life.

Yep. I agree with you Church Militant. This guy needs to at least read the document. Otherwise I, for one, am just going to ignore his anti-Catholic accusations until he does read the document. It’s illogical to debate a document without even reading it first. :wink:

Oh yeah, I forgot. I still don’t fully understand the meaning of suffering. Is this something that only people more intelligent than I can grasp or is this something that is not meant to be fully grasped… kind of like the Trinity? :shrug::confused:

I recommend a book called Making Sense Out Of Suffering by Peter Kreeft.

Oh thank you so much for that book recommendation Thistle! :thumbsup: I wasn’t aware of the existence of this book until you enlightened me. :slight_smile: As a person that feels like I have my full share of suffering, this would be an excellent book for me to read. :slight_smile: I do realize, however, that even though I may suffer a lot that there are a lot less fortunate people out there than I and I am grateful to God for the many gifts that He has bestowed upon me. :slight_smile:

The Council of Florence: “Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits.”

Pope Benedict XII: “Nevertheless, on the day of judgment all men will appear with their bodies ‘before the judgment seat of Christ’ to give an account of their personal deeds, ‘so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body’ (2 Cor. 5.10).” (On the Beatific Vision of God)

Our reward in Heaven in our souls is greater or lesser according to our merits, that is, according to our knowingly chosen acts done in cooperation with grace. Then, at the general Resurrection, we are also rewarded in body. The human persons commits holy acts with both body and soul (and sins with both body and soul), therefore, the reward (or punishment) is in body and soul.

The sheer amount of suffering does not determine the reward because suffering is not always meritorious; only suffering in cooperation with grace is meritorious. Also, many holy acts that are meritorious do not involve suffering, such a prayer or acts of mercy toward others.

SUFFERING is the law of human life. No man can escape it, whether he be pope or king, emperor or president. But if tribulation is a law of human life, it is also, thank God, a law and a condition of Christian progress and perfection. It is a means ordained by Heaven for our sanctification and salvation. His Eminence James Cardinal Gibbons, Cardinal Archbishop of Baltimore

What I said is normal Catholic understanding of the important role of suffering in our salvation. It is you and your shallow worldly understanding of God, suffering and the scriptures that is dangerous, it will leave you ill prepared to deal with the reality of suffering when it comes into your life

God is recorded in scriptures as sending suffering on people all the time from the very beginning starting with Adam and Eve.

Furthermore God is more powerful than the devil and the devil can only do what God allows him to do because of this.

Very interesting! Thanks Ron Conte! :thumbsup:

Thank you for this quote Advocatus Fidei. :thumbsup:

I agree. Such a shallow worldview will only cause one to have very serious doubts in a time of suffering.

American Standard Version
9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Bible in Basic English
9:27 But I give blows to my body, and keep it under control, for fear that, after having given the good news to others, I myself might not have God’s approval.

Darby’s English Translation
9:27 But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest after having preached to others I should be myself rejected.

Douay Rheims
9:27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

Weymouth New Testament
9:27 but I hit hard and straight at my own body and lead it off into slavery, lest possibly, after I have been a herald to others, I should myself be rejected.

World English Bible
9:27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, for fear that by any means, that after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Young’s Literal Translation
9:27 but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others – I myself may become disapproved

Many Protestants like to make clear separations between the body and the spirit, so they will have difficulty understanding. Catholics see the body, mind, and spirit as connected.
Even physical exercise is a way of disciplining the body into submission.
Do you know how many over-weight preachers I have met who proclaimed: “now that your spirit has been fed, it’s time to feed the body!!”

I totally agree with you! And by the way, this post has made an excellent point in my opinion. :thumbsup:

If you call the truth of Scripture “anti-Catholic,” you admit more than you know.

All I did was post Christian reality.

could you at least do me the favor of reading the document I linked to first?

Did that.

Nothing in there that proves the error that God gives the greatest suffering to those He loves "most."

Sorry.

Otherwise you’re just wasting my time, your time, and our time.

I would never think the truth is the waste of anyone’s time, but to each his own.

Anyway, I’m not trying to be offensive here.

Right.

Otherwise I, for one, am just going to ignore his anti-Catholic accusations until he does read the document.

I never made any “anti-Catholic” accusations.

That is a false accusation in and of itself. Surely the truth matters more than this.

**This is quite dangerous doctrine, IMO.

Considering the sheer amount of suffering the Enemy inflicts upon humanity and God’s people, our Lord is not in league with him.

Holy Scripture NEVER teaches that God gives suffering to any of His children, nevermind God loving anyone “most.”**

What I said is normal Catholic understanding of the important role of suffering in our salvation.

I know.

It just is not what the Holy Spirit teaches in His inspired Word.

It is you and your shallow worldly understanding of God, suffering and the scriptures that is dangerous, it will leave you ill prepared to deal with the reality of suffering when it comes into your life

I have had more than my share of suffering, and I know there is more on the way as long as I am in this body.

True faith in God and trusting in His precious promises leave me very prepared. I do not have to believe error to be “prepared.”

God is recorded in scriptures as sending suffering on people all the time from the very beginning starting with Adam and Eve.

Sorry, but you can provide nowhere where God “gives” the greatest sufferings to those He loves “most.”

And the only suffering Adam and Eve endured was because of their own sin. We dare not assume God loves those “most” who sin and thus suffer.

Ok I have a serious question about this. I was diagnosed with MS at 24 and will be turning 38 at the end of this month. I am struggling with this issue. If our enemy befalls sickness or destruction it is God’s work to help his righteous and then if it is ourselves or people we like I hear oh that means God loves you the most…you are a jewel in his crown, God won’ give us more than we can handle, ect. I mean which is it or is it just rote sayings for us to feel better?

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